Off the field
The answer is clearly no. The club have bought their own training ground, which has also not only been extended with additional pitches, but the indoor facilities have been completely refurbished. The stadium has also been completely renovated, with improved access, amenties and concessions. Plus the construction of a new Milton End, which is due to start soon. Although an exact date has yet to be confirmed. Then there is the bigger plan to build a new North Stand, although this hinges on the club getting promoted to the Championship. My only gripe is the time its taken to get all of this done. As somone who works in the construction industry for 20+ years and worked on sports stadia projects in the past, it should never have taken 6 years to get where we are now. Furthermore, I see no reason why we should wait to build a new North stand. The Eisners will be investing in an asset that has an intrinsic value, they will not lose any money by building a new North stand.
On the field
Lets look at where we have finished in the league one over the last few seasons:
2018/2019 - 4th
2019/2020 - 5th
2020/2021 - 8th
2021/2022 - 10th
2022/2023 - ???
The stats speak for themselves dont they?
Lets consider the squad quailty. From our promotion winning season out of league two we had Clarke, Whatmough and Burgess as our centre backs. We now have Raggett, Morrison and Robertson. Enough said. Up front, we had Doyle, Hunt, Main, Naismith and Chaplin. Now we just have one striker on the books, backed up with two poor loan players. If being brutally honest, this smacks of incompetence imho. Who's to blame, most people will point to Cowley, but Cullen should share some responsibility too. An appointment made by the Eisners, who is definately not an upgrade on Caitlin.
Then look at the quality of managers that have been at the helm. On paper Jackett appeared to be the right choice, highly experieneced with a track record of promotion at other clubs. Unfortuantely, the football or Jacketball turned out to be utter shite and results suffered. So we rolled the dice and brought in the Cowley brothers. Highly successfull in non league and gained promotion with Lincoln from league two. Also had one season in the Championship with Huddersfield. Although the Cowleys were experienced, the majority of games managed were in non-league and so it turned out that there was never a plan B, played players out of position and favoured loans in key positions whilst developing youth of other teams at the expense of our own. Now we are looking at a rookie in Liam Manning. Had one good season at MK Dons, a squad he inherited from his predecessor Russell Martin. The cheapest option, which is exactly what we have gone for. The experience and quality of managers / head coaches we appoint appears to be dwindling year on year in the Eisner era?
At the end of the day, Pompey is a football club. The whole premise of the business is playing football. So although the off field improvements are welcomed, the priority is in the playing squad and those that manage it. Unfortunately, we have regressed significantly in this aspect and the buck stops with the Eisners. The policy of 'eat what you kill' is not working and never has since the Eisners took over. They must be a change in strategy going forwards or we will slip further down the league standings in the coming seasons. Some may point to investment in the youth team and development squads, but this has not really bourne any fruit as yet and must not be relied upon as the sole policy in which to gain promotion.
A well reasoned and thought out thread. I agree with pretty much all that you have said.
I think we miss Caitlin. Cullen is very corporate but Caitlin seemed to have a better grasp of what Pompey are all about
Spot on,can’t disagree with any of that.
Great post, agree entirely. We have become Poundland Pompey or for the benefit of our American owners Dollar General.
A well thought out piece.
But I would argue that the off-field progress was/is far more important than any on field stagnation, the state of the ground was a serious threat to the viability of the football club.
The club's future is much more secure as a result of it, and for it to be have been achieved without any debt being loaded on the club is a fantastic achievement and something for which we should be always grateful to the Eisners.
But on the pitch has indeed been very disappointing, going from thinking we had cracked it with Jackett being top at Christmas to successive, increasing disapointments. I think the Eisners have seriously underrated the investment needed to get out of this division. The stakes have changed in the last few years with more and more 'big clubs' dropping down from the Championship with their protected funding which means with the finance rules the division is no longer a level playing field. The choice to stick to the 'eat what you kill' policy and hope to get a lucky season like Wycombe did (and MK dons under Manning nearly did last year) or to double the investment and match the 3 or 4 other clubs at that level of funding and hope to get lucky that one or two of them fail.
Up until now I've been happy with the ground first/team second approach because that was what desperately needed (and incidentally what they promised when buying the club) but the reality is that the league has got so much harder to get out of that it is going to need more investment than they planned, but this has to come as 'donations' or else we would break the FFP rules. Not sure any fans have a right to expect an owner to just donate money with no security, nice though it would be.
Mostly agree with the initial post.
However, the current league one contains several big clubs with whom we are competing and it has become a much tougher league to get out of. Our gates have remained around the 18k mark (apart from during the pandemic) yet in the Jackett era there was only Sunderland who attracted more support than us. Now we compete with Sheffield Wed, Ipswich, Derby and Bolton, all of whom have bigger capacities and bigger average crowds. Next season will also be tough as we will probably be up against 2 or 3 of these clubs (depends if Plymouth get promoted) and both Derby and Bolton are likely to strengthen their squads as they recover from financial meltdowns.
That first season under Jackett was such a missed opportunity - top going into the January window and we blew it!
I think the problem was they trusted a manager to do the job. Hughes coming in will hopefully hit the reset button which is what we need right now.
I would also stop wasting money if a manager brought in constantly injured players or ones on high wages that didn’t play. My personal opinion is our wage budget if prett decent but we have got to many player that we waste wages on also we are probably paying big loan wages also
(12-01-2023, 02:31 PM)Daniel Wrote: [ -> ]I think the problem was they trusted a manager to do the job. Hughes coming in will hopefully hit the reset button which is what we need right now.
I would also stop wasting money if a manager brought in constantly injured players or ones on high wages that didn’t play. My personal opinion is our wage budget if prett decent but we have got to many player that we waste wages on also we are probably paying big loan wages also
I'm afraid I have seen nothing from Hughes yet that would indicate he is what we need right now. In fact things have gone rapidly downhill since he arrived.
And if his presence means we are limiting our new appointment to the likes of Manning & Williams rather than the likes of Wilder, then he is potentially even more part of the problem rather than part of the solution.
It's early days for Hughes, far too early to judge, but he needs to show that he is improving the club pretty soon IMO. But I am not a fan of the DOF model at this level of the game.
(12-01-2023, 02:42 PM)DeepBlue Wrote: [ -> ] (12-01-2023, 02:31 PM)Daniel Wrote: [ -> ]I think the problem was they trusted a manager to do the job. Hughes coming in will hopefully hit the reset button which is what we need right now.
I would also stop wasting money if a manager brought in constantly injured players or ones on high wages that didn’t play. My personal opinion is our wage budget if prett decent but we have got to many player that we waste wages on also we are probably paying big loan wages also
I'm afraid I have seen nothing from Hughes yet that would indicate he is what we need right now. In fact things have gone rapidly downhill since he arrived.
And if his presence means we are limiting our new appointment to the likes of Manning & Williams rather than the likes of Wilder, then he is potentially even more part of the problem rather than part of the solution.
It's early days for Hughes, far too early to judge, but he needs to show that he is improving the club pretty soon IMO. But I am not a fan of the DOF model at this level of the game.
I think it's incredibly stupid for a DOF to sign a player without the coach being in place like we have done. It basically sends a message that the DOF buys the players, you just coach the players irrespective of whether you think they can play your system. But what if, as the coach, your preferred formation or tactics doesn't need said signing? The DOF and coach should be working together for any of this to work I think but clearly Hughes holds the cards. Maybe it'll work but I thought it was the coach that came up with the formation and tactics, not the DOF. I think the set up, at least for this level, would only suit a weak personality able to take orders. And what about those dumbfeck players? Will they consider the DOF to be the actual boss or play the two against each other?
Anyway, if the next coach gets sacked, then the DOF should get sacked at the same time.
(12-01-2023, 04:28 PM)Lawrence Wrote: [ -> ] (12-01-2023, 02:42 PM)DeepBlue Wrote: [ -> ] (12-01-2023, 02:31 PM)Daniel Wrote: [ -> ]I think the problem was they trusted a manager to do the job. Hughes coming in will hopefully hit the reset button which is what we need right now.
I would also stop wasting money if a manager brought in constantly injured players or ones on high wages that didn’t play. My personal opinion is our wage budget if prett decent but we have got to many player that we waste wages on also we are probably paying big loan wages also
I'm afraid I have seen nothing from Hughes yet that would indicate he is what we need right now. In fact things have gone rapidly downhill since he arrived.
And if his presence means we are limiting our new appointment to the likes of Manning & Williams rather than the likes of Wilder, then he is potentially even more part of the problem rather than part of the solution.
It's early days for Hughes, far too early to judge, but he needs to show that he is improving the club pretty soon IMO. But I am not a fan of the DOF model at this level of the game.
I think it's incredibly stupid for a DOF to sign a player without the coach being in place like we have done. It basically sends a message that the DOF buys the players, you just coach the players irrespective of whether you think they can play your system. But what if, as the coach, your preferred formation or tactics doesn't need said signing? The DOF and coach should be working together for any of this to work I think but clearly Hughes holds the cards. Maybe it'll work but I thought it was the coach that came up with the formation and tactics, not the DOF. I think the set up, at least for this level, would only suit a weak personality able to take orders. And what about those dumbfeck players? Will they consider the DOF to be the actual boss or play the two against each other?
Anyway, if the next coach gets sacked, then the DOF should get sacked at the same time.
By the sounds of it the towler deal was too good to not take up.
(12-01-2023, 01:00 PM)Hermann's_no_hermit Wrote: [ -> ]A well reasoned and thought out thread. I agree with pretty much all that you have said.
I think we miss Caitlin. Cullen is very corporate but Caitlin seemed to have a better grasp of what Pompey are all about
Didn’t he appoint the Chuckle Brothers? The reason for the on field decline?
He signed a first choice keeper on loans despite them having a recall option. Baffling.
He had 3 windows to build a team and left us well short.
Yes Catlin was CEO when the Cowleys were appointed. DC announced a couple of months ago that our no2 keeper needed to go out on loan for experience during this transfer window, as it stands at the moment he will be in goal Saturday.
(12-01-2023, 06:10 PM)Northstander Wrote: [ -> ]Yes Catlin was CEO when the Cowleys were appointed. DC announced a couple of months ago that our no2 keeper needed to go out on loan for experience during this transfer window, as it stands at the moment he will be in goal Saturday.
Imagine if we had a keeper who was decent and came through the academy to play.
(12-01-2023, 02:42 PM)DeepBlue Wrote: [ -> ] (12-01-2023, 02:31 PM)Daniel Wrote: [ -> ]I think the problem was they trusted a manager to do the job. Hughes coming in will hopefully hit the reset button which is what we need right now.
I would also stop wasting money if a manager brought in constantly injured players or ones on high wages that didn’t play. My personal opinion is our wage budget if prett decent but we have got to many player that we waste wages on also we are probably paying big loan wages also
I'm afraid I have seen nothing from Hughes yet that would indicate he is what we need right now. In fact things have gone rapidly downhill since he arrived.
And if his presence means we are limiting our new appointment to the likes of Manning & Williams rather than the likes of Wilder, then he is potentially even more part of the problem rather than part of the solution.
It's early days for Hughes, far too early to judge, but he needs to show that he is improving the club pretty soon IMO. But I am not a fan of the DOF model at this level of the game.
I rarely agree with Deep, but this is spot on. I see Hughes as the elephant in the room - joined and subsequently our form came crashing down - is very possibly a barrier to a better quality team manager.
Would we still be prevaricating about an appointment if the DoF wasn't in place? I suspect not. It's been over 11 days FFS. Don't kid yourselves; this is now becoming a serious issue with the Jan t/w ticking by and important games imminent.
Goodness knows what the players are thinking, and ultimately they are the ones effected more than anyone.
I feel sure the catering has improved.
(12-01-2023, 05:15 PM)Pompeyg100 Wrote: [ -> ] (12-01-2023, 01:00 PM)Hermann's_no_hermit Wrote: [ -> ]A well reasoned and thought out thread. I agree with pretty much all that you have said.
I think we miss Caitlin. Cullen is very corporate but Caitlin seemed to have a better grasp of what Pompey are all about
Didn’t he appoint the Chuckle Brothers? The reason for the on field decline?
He signed a first choice keeper on loans despite them having a recall option. Baffling.
He had 3 windows to build a team and left us well short.
Catlin's appointments:
Ritchie Barker
Andy Awford
Kenny Jackett
Danny Cowley
With a single EFL trophy to show for all of that.
Whatever i happening on the pitch, sorting out the rest was far more important and is well under way. Still looking for more land, still talking about the next stage in the stadium upgrade.
So yes its taking time to get there but as income increases we can at least become more competitive with pay offers and all the rest.
It does also feel like we have moved into the stage of building our own U23 squad and the training ground to house them.
It might be one of those projects where it suddenly all comes together. It felt like it had early this season, sadly the over reliance on loans fell apart when they stopped performing, but the noises coming out are that we won't be doing that again.
(12-01-2023, 07:47 PM)Gerry Hatrick Wrote: [ -> ] (12-01-2023, 05:15 PM)Pompeyg100 Wrote: [ -> ] (12-01-2023, 01:00 PM)Hermann's_no_hermit Wrote: [ -> ]A well reasoned and thought out thread. I agree with pretty much all that you have said.
I think we miss Caitlin. Cullen is very corporate but Caitlin seemed to have a better grasp of what Pompey are all about
Didn’t he appoint the Chuckle Brothers? The reason for the on field decline?
He signed a first choice keeper on loans despite them having a recall option. Baffling.
He had 3 windows to build a team and left us well short.
Catlin's appointments:
Ritchie Barker
Andy Awford
Kenny Jackett
Danny Cowley
With a single EFL trophy to show for all of that.
Cook
And league two champions?
(13-01-2023, 05:40 AM)Cunninglinguist Wrote: [ -> ] (12-01-2023, 07:47 PM)Gerry Hatrick Wrote: [ -> ] (12-01-2023, 05:15 PM)Pompeyg100 Wrote: [ -> ] (12-01-2023, 01:00 PM)Hermann's_no_hermit Wrote: [ -> ]A well reasoned and thought out thread. I agree with pretty much all that you have said.
I think we miss Caitlin. Cullen is very corporate but Caitlin seemed to have a better grasp of what Pompey are all about
Didn’t he appoint the Chuckle Brothers? The reason for the on field decline?
He signed a first choice keeper on loans despite them having a recall option. Baffling.
He had 3 windows to build a team and left us well short.
Catlin's appointments:
Ritchie Barker
Andy Awford
Kenny Jackett
Danny Cowley
With a single EFL trophy to show for all of that.
Cook
And league two champions?
Oops! Too many beers last night.....
I wasn’t sure, hence the question mark.
(12-01-2023, 12:26 PM)BigSmokeBlue Wrote: [ -> ]Off the field
The answer is clearly no. The club have bought their own training ground, which has also not only been extended with additional pitches, but the indoor facilities have been completely refurbished. The stadium has also been completely renovated, with improved access, amenties and concessions. Plus the construction of a new Milton End, which is due to start soon. Although an exact date has yet to be confirmed. Then there is the bigger plan to build a new North Stand, although this hinges on the club getting promoted to the Championship. My only gripe is the time its taken to get all of this done. As somone who works in the construction industry for 20+ years and worked on sports stadia projects in the past, it should never have taken 6 years to get where we are now. Furthermore, I see no reason why we should wait to build a new North stand. The Eisners will be investing in an asset that has an intrinsic value, they will not lose any money by building a new North stand.
On the field
Lets look at where we have finished in the league one over the last few seasons:
2018/2019 - 4th
2019/2020 - 5th
2020/2021 - 8th
2021/2022 - 10th
2022/2023 - ???
The stats speak for themselves dont they?
Lets consider the squad quailty. From our promotion winning season out of league two we had Clarke, Whatmough and Burgess as our centre backs. We now have Raggett, Morrison and Robertson. Enough said. Up front, we had Doyle, Hunt, Main, Naismith and Chaplin. Now we just have one striker on the books, backed up with two poor loan players. If being brutally honest, this smacks of incompetence imho. Who's to blame, most people will point to Cowley, but Cullen should share some responsibility too. An appointment made by the Eisners, who is definately not an upgrade on Caitlin.
Then look at the quality of managers that have been at the helm. On paper Jackett appeared to be the right choice, highly experieneced with a track record of promotion at other clubs. Unfortuantely, the football or Jacketball turned out to be utter shite and results suffered. So we rolled the dice and brought in the Cowley brothers. Highly successfull in non league and gained promotion with Lincoln from league two. Also had one season in the Championship with Huddersfield. Although the Cowleys were experienced, the majority of games managed were in non-league and so it turned out that there was never a plan B, played players out of position and favoured loans in key positions whilst developing youth of other teams at the expense of our own. Now we are looking at a rookie in Liam Manning. Had one good season at MK Dons, a squad he inherited from his predecessor Russell Martin. The cheapest option, which is exactly what we have gone for. The experience and quality of managers / head coaches we appoint appears to be dwindling year on year in the Eisner era?
At the end of the day, Pompey is a football club. The whole premise of the business is playing football. So although the off field improvements are welcomed, the priority is in the playing squad and those that manage it. Unfortunately, we have regressed significantly in this aspect and the buck stops with the Eisners. The policy of 'eat what you kill' is not working and never has since the Eisners took over. They must be a change in strategy going forwards or we will slip further down the league standings in the coming seasons. Some may point to investment in the youth team and development squads, but this has not really bourne any fruit as yet and must not be relied upon as the sole policy in which to gain promotion.
Overall an excellent post.
Don't agree with parts of the analysis for 'off the field'. The comment that the 'ground has been totally renovated' is, quite frankly a gross exaggeration. Most of the work needed to be done years ago and despite a commitment when buying the Club from the Trust the modest improvements (by comparison with other clubs) took the owners six years. Little, if anything, has happened on the Fratton End, downstairs on the north side is still pretty awful and the new, should I say replacement, Milton End when finished will look like the back end of a US rodeo stadium. Major work to the North Stand depends on promotion to the Championship; so that will be sometime never then!
I totally agree and fully endorse the concluding paragraph about how we have failed quite abysmally on the pitch and, as it stands, we are just as likely to be relegated as make the play-offs. But when we are dealing with absentee, unambitious owners with no real understanding of English football what should we expect?!!
As opposed to staying supporter owned and playing in 5,000 seater ground. Just to get us playing again cost the Eisners millions and as for the ridiculous claim of unambitious owners , it’s always easy to spend someone else’s money.
(14-01-2023, 12:38 PM)bluetagagain Wrote: [ -> ]As opposed to staying supporter owned and playing in 5,000 seater ground. Just to get us playing again cost the Eisners millions and as for the ridiculous claim of unambitious owners , it’s always easy to spend someone else’s money.
spot on
(14-01-2023, 12:38 PM)bluetagagain Wrote: [ -> ]As opposed to staying supporter owned and playing in 5,000 seater ground. Just to get us playing again cost the Eisners millions and as for the ridiculous claim of unambitious owners , it’s always easy to spend someone else’s money.
Personally I'm sick to death with how indebted we should be to the Eisners for saving the Club and getting us through the pandemic. It's strange that for all the problems resulting from the pandemic not a single club folded and went out of business.
(14-01-2023, 03:36 PM)blueandwight Wrote: [ -> ] (14-01-2023, 12:38 PM)bluetagagain Wrote: [ -> ]As opposed to staying supporter owned and playing in 5,000 seater ground. Just to get us playing again cost the Eisners millions and as for the ridiculous claim of unambitious owners , it’s always easy to spend someone else’s money.
Personally I'm sick to death with how indebted we should be to the Eisners for saving the Club and getting us through the pandemic. It's strange that for all the problems resulting from the pandemic not a single club folded and went out of business.
There are not many still debt free from the pandemic.