....a purpose and direction coming from Tornante that couldn’t have come from retaining fan ownership?
I got bitten by the Pompey bug when the club were in serious danger of going belly up and was blown away when the fans stepped up and bought the club. I was then bitterly disappointed when the same fans voted to give up that precious ownership for a relative pittance to an American billionaire with no experience of English football.
Was it worth it?
At least when they sold it off they had somebody they could all blame for the fiasco called Portsmouth FC. They may as well join most of the British soccer clubs by giving their precious teams to foreign people who don't even know what football really is and rarely go to a match. Same the world over and will never change. Go skaters
I wasn’t in U.K. when the Sale took place so didn't hear the arguments/ proposals on which the deal was based although I thought at the time it was a shame that the fans surrendered control to a foreigner (I thought that lesson might have been learned already). People who know more than I about the circumstances surrounding the sale, feel that the desire of the HNW individuals (who had played such an important role in saving Pompey) to pass responsibility on to someone else was important and that most fan shareholders were swayed by Eisner’s presentation.
From what I have read on this and other Boards people feel the sale saved Pompey from going bust and/ or Fratton Park becoming unsafe / unusable. I don’t know the truth of these allegations but would point out that Bury are the only League Club to cease trading and that no other grounds have been deemed unsafe / closed.
Clubs a lot smaller than Pompey stumble on because of Covid ravages but they are still around (and some of them have beaten Pompey recently).
From my own perspective Pompey are now in the hands of someone who knows everything about money but nothing about Football, someone who has made a financial investment and not an emotional investment.
I think the Fan owned Pompey would have soldiered on (Maybe in League 1 which Fan owned Pompey achieved), more funds might have been required but it would be Our Club, Our responsibility, Our Team......and not the plaything of another rich Yank.
The ESL fiasco shows American football investors for what they are, Money and Power Merchants first and last.
(21-04-2021, 10:27 PM)kindofblue Wrote: [ -> ]....a purpose and direction coming from Tornante that couldn’t have come from retaining fan ownership?
I got bitten by the Pompey bug when the club were in serious danger of going belly up and was blown away when the fans stepped up and bought the club. I was then bitterly disappointed when the same fans voted to give up that precious ownership for a relative pittance to an American billionaire with no experience of English football.
Was it worth it?
I would say the purpose and direction under Tornante has remained the same as under fan ownership, i.e slow and sustainable progress , or 'eat what you kill' as the Eisners put it, which is essentially a continuation of what we had to do under fan ownership.
The difference is that we still have a ground to play in with all 4 sides open. That is what the fan ownership could no longer afford to provide, and the Eisners won the vote because they promised to put £10m into the club's finances to spend on the ground. A promise that was kept and is now at least half-spent.
The way I see it they have kept to their word in all respects. They have done what they said they would and what the fans voted for. But for some reason the fans now think we have a divine right to be in the championship and knocking on the door for three seasons is not good enough. The personal abuse and threats that they have received because we have 'only' achieved play-off contention reflect very badly on our fan base. We were essentially a start-up club when the fans bought the club and lucky to be starting in league two rather than lower in the pyramid. To be as close we have been to the championship in such a few years is no mean achievement.
I think your definition of 'close' to the championship is different to a lot of people's lol. We've not been anywhere near good enough in the playoffs. Its been 9 years since we last played championship football and i'm completely fed up with what is served up to watch each Tuesday/Saturday. The lows are still massively outweighing the highs.
The frustration is that we have so much potential and it feels like the owners arent willing to take a small punt to get us over the line. They have made soooooo many mistakes in the last 4 years. Catlin is doing a really poor job at getting them up to speed.
That being said, personal abuse of the owners is completely wrong and is an embarrassment to the fans. We cant claim to be the best fans in the country and then act like complete coonts on twitter. That needs to be stamped out.
As I have already said I was not in U.K. when the takeover was made but, was Pompey made publicly for sale ie bids invited for consideration by the shareholders or was this close to being a pre-pack ?
Such a shame that Pompey were sold into the hands of another bunch of already wealthy Yanks whose only real interest is further enriching themselves.
‘We only eat what we kill’ is simply a euphemism for ‘ The fans will fund the club but we will collect any added value that occurs’
We are getting nothing more than what we could achieve as a fan owned club. The buyout appeared and happened very promptly without too many questions being asked about the huge amount of works needed to keep parts of the ground open. Our American owners got a bargain and we gave up the dream to easily.
I hope that the proposed government investigation into Club ownership will propose and implement something along the lines of The Bundesliga Licence rule of ‘Fan ownership’ of a club must be 50% + 1 share.
Whether this government will do anything of value is highly questionable, probably little more than a doffing of the cap to the voting masses.
What a pity that the FA, Football League and now The EFL never bothered to protect clubs and their fans from wholesale takeovers by foreign interests, Pompey were, in effect, raped and pillaged by a series of mendacious and money grabbing owners whilst the Football Authorities found them to be ‘Fit and Proper’.
Smirnoff "We are getting nothing more than what we could achieve as a fan owned club."
Other than having a ground with 4 sides still open.
Which was the only reason people voted to sell.
And covering the clubs losses during Covid, another thing the trust would have struggled to do.
I wasn't in favour of selling but I can't see why people are whinging about the buyers doing exactly what they said they would.
And I can't see why the progress made to the play-off zone is unsatisfactory under their ownership but would presumably be accepted if still owned by the fans because the funding of the playing side remains unchanged. As they said it would.
Well, we haven't been relegated or gone into administration for quite a while, so that's been refreshing. Also ground improvements have been made, a permanent training base secured and generally an upward trend in league position.
Yes, some of the football has been really bland but I think we're heading in the right direction.
As a previous shareholder I'm still happy with my decision to sell up. What the Trust did was amazing but it's my belief that the self owned model would at best have had us treading water in the middle of League One. There would have come a point where, in order to raise the money necessary to progress, we'd have either had to borrow or go to the supporters again which is not something I think would have worked a second time.
And lets make no mistake, a large amount of money raised was by a few individuals. Could they have sustained investment, especially over the period of the last year.
(23-04-2021, 07:21 AM)Wightblue Wrote: [ -> ]I hope that the proposed government investigation into Club ownership will propose and implement something along the lines of The Bundesliga Licence rule of ‘Fan ownership’ of a club must be 50% + 1 share.
Whether this government will do anything of value is highly questionable, probably little more than a doffing of the cap to the voting masses.
What a pity that the FA, Football League and now The EFL never bothered to protect clubs and their fans from wholesale takeovers by foreign interests, Pompey were, in effect, raped and pillaged by a series of mendacious and money grabbing owners whilst the Football Authorities found them to be ‘Fit and Proper’.
You say you weren’t in the country Wightblue but the arguments were very well publicised at the time, so fairly easy for anyone to find.
I assume you also weren’t a shareholder, otherwise you would have been actively involved. Those of us who were shareholders had a decision to make, most of us liked being shareholders so we didn’t just hand over control without thinking about it.
It would be great if we could have retained control but there simply wasn’t enough money put up by fans, it’s that simple. A lot of the people shouting the loudest against the Eisners didn’t actually put their money where their mouths were. It’s very easy to criticise from afar.
I’m not suggesting that you should have contributed, that is a personal decision, but the implication that control was handed over lightly is very far from the truth.
I think the Eisners have been steady owners, they said they wouldn’t put daft money in and they haven’t. They have done pretty much exactly what they said they would.
Personally I’d like to see a system like the German model, where fans have to own 51% of the club. With a system like that you get investment but ultimately the power still lies with the fans. We don’t currently have that but I think on balance we have the next best thing, the Eisners have given no indication that they are predators in the same mould as some of the Prem owners.
I would hope that the European Super League debacle prompts some government action but I won’t be holding my breath.
(23-04-2021, 08:36 AM)teeftwo Wrote: [ -> ]...a permanent training base secured...
Would that be the training base the supporters funded long before Tornante had ever heard of Pompey?
As has just been displayed with the ESL, American owners don't understand what it involves to truly support a football team in Europe. It's not about packing everything up every now and again and moving to a new city, it's about the roots that grow through a long time association with a particular town or city. I didn't want Tornante to purchase the club and to this day that fact remains, only it has grown much stronger over the years. I lived and worked in America and I saw at first hand that to the owners it's a business, nothing more and nothing less. The Eisners are no different to the Glazers, Hendry and all the others that have taken control of European clubs, only they have less personal wealth.
As a former shareholder I have no regrets at the decision I made. The Trust saved Pompey and we will always be in their debt for that alone. But how the Trust would have coped with ground improvements and the losses during the pandemic is entirely a different question and for that we have to thank the Eisners. Pompey is alive and kicking, at least the supporters are, and that is down to the owners.
For me the jury is still out regarding the Eisners. We did, for better or worse, sell the club to the first bloke to come knocking and I have often wondered what might have happened had we held out for a better offer. This may not have materialised of course so I certainly don't knock those who voted for the Eisners, who did so with the best interests of the club at heart.
I'm just a bit underwhelmed by their input up to now and still a little bit suspicious of an old American bloke suddenly turning up at Fratton Park wearing a pompey baseball cap. However I'm probably scarred by memories and promises of some the crooks and chancers who have managed to get their hands on our club in the last 40 years.
We couldn't have held out for a 'better offer'.
The Eisners paid the maximum amount we were allowed to sell the club for under the terms of the fans buyout.
We could have held out for someone else, but there are plenty of sharks out there so we could have done much worse.
(23-04-2021, 10:29 AM)DeepBlue Wrote: [ -> ]We couldn't have held out for a 'better offer'.
The Eisners paid the maximum amount we were allowed to sell the club for under the terms of the fans buyout.
We could have held out for someone else, but there are plenty of sharks out there so we could have done much worse
A better offer isn't necessarily related to the amount of money they paid - there are many other factors that need to be taken into account. As I said, I'm not as sold as on the Eisners as some but we definitely could have done a lot worse.
The German model would be ideal and the government is currently making populist noises to that effect, but don’t expect them to do much to upset the American buisiness model when push comes to shove. They’re just riding out the groundswirl of anger till it goes away.
Catlin probably nailed it at the time of the sale when he said that fan ownership is a great idea but doesn’t work when only a few clubs do it. In the meantime, I’m not bothered about promotion - can we just have some passion and pride in the shirt?
(23-04-2021, 08:57 AM)Rick Pumpkin Wrote: [ -> ] (23-04-2021, 08:36 AM)teeftwo Wrote: [ -> ]...a permanent training base secured...
Would that be the training base the supporters funded long before Tornante had ever heard of Pompey?
As has just been displayed with the ESL, American owners don't understand what it involves to truly support a football team in Europe. It's not about packing everything up every now and again and moving to a new city, it's about the roots that grow through a long time association with a particular town or city. I didn't want Tornante to purchase the club and to this day that fact remains, only it has grown much stronger over the years. I lived and worked in America and I saw at first hand that to the owners it's a business, nothing more and nothing less. The Eisners are no different to the Glazers, Hendry and all the others that have taken control of European clubs, only they have less personal wealth.
I take your point that a deal was agreed with Roko for a long lease when the trust owed the club. Financed by the club at the time, payed for over the years by income from football, secured long term by the Tornante ownership. Meanwhile a whole lot of infrastructure costs were mounting up.
American owners own Fulham, Millwall and Ipswich among others. I think they are happy with their lot. Not all American owners are equal. Pretty sure Blackpool weren't too happy with their last English owner. A bad owner is a bad owner, regardless of origin.
I wish the football was better, I wish there were faster progress, I wish we could pay more for better players. However having been alive long enough to witness financial problems in the 70's, 80's, 90's, 00's and 10's it's rather nice not to have yet seen financial issues in the 20's. Perhaps it's time we did things a little differently rather than consistently going bust every few years.
(22-04-2021, 10:36 PM)Smirnoffexpress Wrote: [ -> ]Our American owners got a bargain and we gave up the dream to easily.
Amen to that, brother Smirnoffexpress.
“Brother” ticks the boxes that “comrade” never will.
I was heartbroken when we went back into private ownership. With real vision and clever marketing we might have changed the whole landscape of football. An ethically run, fan owned club! But hey, my life is littered with mistakes I have made when idealism has been the driving force.
We have what we now have. Our Pompey continues but down another road. Hopefully when I’m long dead my great grandkids will see the highs and lows that we all have. It is not just a special football club, it is far deeper than just that!
I just saw that Real Madrid are one billion Euros in debt. That for me is the big issue with football finance. They should be banned from winning anything until that is paid off. How you pay that off without selling out as per the ESL, I have not got a clue.
Agreed. Massive debts but able to carry on spending and buying. It makes no sense.
and then puts pressure on owners who try and run their club properly. Some fans never learn that what you spend sometime has to be paid for.
It is not only about what you spend, it’s also about how well you spend. How many of those signed over the last two years have been “bargains” or even good value for money?