There has been lots of talk on here about homegrown talent and the fact that the club are looking to grown their own and eat what you kill. What is strange is, I run an under 6 club and there are always Chelsea, Scum and Brighton scouts at every game. In fact 3 of the lads a scum academy now, 1 plays scum and chelsea academies and 1 is Brighton.
I have never seen a pompey scout in the last 18 months. I know the three clubs are prem and have more resources to try and catch them young but does anyone know what age pompey start scouting. It strikes me that by the time we are looking, the prem clubs have had the best of our talent away and even at grass roots level, we are left with what no one else thought was good enough.
I know at 6, you couldnt possibly tell what a lad will be like and they most will not make the grade, but the importance of young talent is obviously not lost on our rvials but is apparently the life blood of our club with no apprent investment in this part of the club either.
If young local talent is where the club sees its future, they appear to be failing here as well.
I ran youth teams for 10 years when my sons were younger. They both went through the systems at Southampton, Portsmouth and Millwall gaining youth contracts and continuing until the ages of 18 when they were released. One was scouted at 10 the other at 14. During that time, I witnessed all kinds of approaches, attitudes, behaviours and actions official and unofficial from the clubs and coaches. All three clubs were constantly looking at players from local leagues and further afield, from released youngsters being tracked to others established but wanting a move. All three clubs kept scores of youngsters in and around their official youth systems, tracking their progressions either within the system or at local clubs where they knew the standard of coaching to be of a good standard. The schools systems too, as they then were, provided some talent of interest.
Such an approach necessiated clear outs every now and again. I saw several where virtually entire academy years were released at 10 and again at 14 (when it starts to get a little more serious) and then obviously at 16 and 18 before contracts proper are more often signed.
There isn't one size fits all and good players can be snapped up at any stage (or similarly released). I once watched an U15s game when a lad playing upfront for an opposing team scored a hat trick but was then told at pitchside before he had even got changed that he was being released. I witnessed another lad trialling for two different teams at the same time get released as niether team liked the idea of him trying out elsewhere.
The problem for Pompey is that, as with all things these days, the rules have been amended time and again to allow the Premier League clubs to do what ever it is they want. They can nowadays scout further afield and offer terms to very young kids who lay far outside a team's traditional catchment area. Clubs like Chelsea hoover up vast numbers of kids (you only have to go to their Cobham training ground on Academy match day to see hundreds of kids being bussed in .....and that's only the kids playing at home that day).
These days, unless a player's family are ardent Pompey fans, a kid is always going to want to play for Chelsea or Tottenham before our club however long the odds of success....the draw is too great and the kudos at a boy's school amongst his class mates simply too much for Pompey to compete with.
The good news is that you are right and it is difficult to find the gem in the rough particularly when they are very young. Players who excel at 6 or 8 might simply not grow either physically or talent wise. Other kids who start off slower, weaker, lacking in knowledge of the game, can come through very strongly at 12 or 14.....hence the clearouts and replacements with those being tracked in the local leagues. It's a big investment by clubs in what is effectively....a 'punt' and perhaps Pompey simply no longer have the where with all to want to take that gamble?
I don't think things have changed much in terms of our difficulty in finding and then keeping those rough diamonds until they make the senior grade.
I know Mark Chamberlain was unimpressed with the Pompey academy set up when he sent young Alex down the road where he prospered.
And then there is Mason Mount - scouted at FOUR years old and then signed up by Chelsea at six. How do you compete with that?
It is all but impossible for a non prem club to compete now. That is just what the prem and FA planned and put in place a few years ago.
Chelsea, especially, flood local primary schools with leaflets, holiday football clubs and all the rest.
I think for now, we are better to forget about the younger age groups and scout and sign up the prem/champ cast offs at 18+
Invest in an U23 team set up and wait until we have a ground and space for a top grade youth set up.
Not anything I would want to see us do but we don't have the space at present to do both.
(05-06-2021, 02:11 PM)Hammie Wrote: [ -> ]It is all but impossible for a non prem club to compete now. That is just what the prem and FA planned and put in place a few years ago.
Chelsea, especially, flood local primary schools with leaflets, holiday football clubs and all the rest.
I think for now, we are better to forget about the younger age groups and scout and sign up the prem/champ cast offs at 18+
Invest in an U23 team set up and wait until we have a ground and space for a top grade youth set up.
Not anything I would want to see us do but we don't have the space at present to do both.
There is certainly an argument to do just that, as Brentford did some years ago.
The above anecdotes are very true and here are a couple more to add to the collection of the difference between lofty words and reality.
First story concerns a well run Pompey in the community scheme, where a guy (wont mention his name), was employed to go and give PE lessons to primary school children in our city. He built up a good rapport with all concern, made many contacts and got to look at the 5-10 year olds in Portsmouth. Long story short, we couldnt afford to keep him going, and he was immediately snapped up by Chelsea, doing the same thing.
Second story involves the youth team i help coach. One of our lads was invited to go and train with QPR. His father didn't particularly want to do the hour each way trip to the top of the A3 where they had a training outpost. As a result i emailed the club to say he had been approached, and also suggested that the club reached out to the local youth football clubs. The club where i am has 24 teams from U7-U18 (and we are not alone). I suggested that we arranged a day where the club sent a few coaches down to take some training sessions. We could arrange for all 24 teams and managers to be there.
The benefit would be
to make contacts and ties (with coaches and players), to form links with the boys at a young age (hopefully lifelong bonds) and to also give them the chance to scout the cities players on mass. The outlay to Pompey would have been 3 coaches pay for a Saturday. Who knows what the rewards would have been.
Anyway, after chasing up on the email 3 or so times, I was told it had been forwarded to the academy manager. After no response, i finally sent it to Ian Mcinnes, whose secretary passed it on to Johnny Moore. He responded by saying that the club didn't want to commit to having ties with one club.
I did respond by saying i thought the club should be doing this with all the cities youth football clubs.
That was pre Eisner days, but we really haven't experienced any difference in attitude, which is a crying shame, especially as we don't have a lot of money. Most of the coaches and managers are Pompey fans, and if we had a contact, would be only to happy to pass on info on players or other clubs approaches.
So i'm afraid to say that it is no surprise that we miss out on local lads. But I don't accept that we can't compete solely due to money. I think we don't take advantage of the cities goodwill to the club, and have either had people running things who have been unwilling or unable to be a little bit creative in their thinking.
I also worked at one local primary where they used young "pompey" staff to teach PE lessons freeing up teachers to do their PPA time (legally set aside time for planning and preparation) for very little cost. Sadly what I saw watching from the room that we had to use for marking etc was very poor lessons often little more than a free time to run around the field with the staff sitting on the grass watching.
Its not that long ago that Pompey academy produced the likes of Joel Ward and Matt Ritchie who have clocked up hundreds of games in the Premiership and we did identify the likes of Mount and Swift but could n't hang on to them. I'm not sure it is just about the lure of the big clubs for local lads as much as the lack of professionalism at Pompey. There is a need for a root and branch change to regularly produce players who are capable of playing in the Championship and occasionally in the Premiership. Our recent record has been poor and given the mass release we have just seen I suspect someone has recognised this. Hope the new regime picks up on some of the points above.
We should sponsor St Mary's Hospital maternity ward and when those Chelsea scouts next come a-calling THEY'LL be the ones spitting their dummies out.
I would endorse from experience pretty much everything that Farjam wrote. (By the way, Farjam, I’m fairly sure I know who your son is and that we talked during training while mine played in the same team while trialling for Pompey at 16.) I have to say that ultimately I was pretty disillusioned by the attitude, behaviour and competence of many people running or coaching in academies. They too often just did not know how to treat people decently, including parents. As a result, I think they lose many talented young players. I doubt things have changed much in the intervening years. For example, my son was picked up at 12 by a London Premier League club, after an inter-borough schools match (only his second 11-a-side match) and scored twice as from midfield in his first game. But as soon as his trial was over, he was switched to centre-back to replace someone they had released, presumably because at that stage he was a couple of inches taller than anyone else. It certainly wasn’t the best move for his development and didn’t play to his technical strengths. He released very early in his under-16 season, after four years. They could more usefully have released him at the end of the previous season (though at that time they had just told us in his end-of-year report that ‘everyone at ---- thinks the world of …’). They also gave contradictory reasons for releasing him, saying one thing at the meeting where they told us, and quite the opposite in his written release report a few weeks later. Neither was true. It wasn’t the decision itself, it was the way it was done. The Pompey trial came to a sudden end when he suffered a cruciate ligament injury in a tackle 15 minutes into his second match (having played the last 15 of his previous game and done well), against Southampton as it happens. Pompey, to their credit, did support his rehab for a couple of months, but did not resume the trial. And when he was looking for another club, people promised to call back and didn’t, promised trials and backtracked. And so he dropped out of the system.
(05-06-2021, 09:36 AM)Gerry Hatrick Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think things have changed much in terms of our difficulty in finding and then keeping those rough diamonds until they make the senior grade.
I know Mark Chamberlain was unimpressed with the Pompey academy set up when he sent young Alex down the road where he prospered.
And then there is Mason Mount - scouted at FOUR years old and then signed up by Chelsea at six. How do you compete with that?
Article from yesterday's Evening Standard:
Euro 2021: Mason Mount’s team-mates joked he wasn’t good enough to join them | Evening Standard
The club should have youth team coaches taking training sessions on a weekly basis at local schools so any more promising youngsters don't slip through the net. Admittedly, it's difficult trying to weed out at such an early age. But if we can pick say 6-12 youngsters & help them to progress locally & give them a chance if they prove good enough or sell them on at a huge profit it's all been a worthwhile exercise. As long as we can provide top training & support we have a chance. Chelsea are on a different scale & can offer top coaching, travelling expenses, major tournaments etc; But at a guess only about 5% approx are offered pro contracts if their outstanding.
(05-06-2021, 06:52 AM)spencerc Wrote: [ -> ]There has been lots of talk on here about homegrown talent and the fact that the club are looking to grown their own and eat what you kill. What is strange is, I run an under 6 club and there are always Chelsea, Scum and Brighton scouts at every game. In fact 3 of the lads a scum academy now, 1 plays scum and chelsea academies and 1 is Brighton.
I have never seen a pompey scout in the last 18 months. I know the three clubs are prem and have more resources to try and catch them young but does anyone know what age pompey start scouting. It strikes me that by the time we are looking, the prem clubs have had the best of our talent away and even at grass roots level, we are left with what no one else thought was good enough.
I know at 6, you couldnt possibly tell what a lad will be like and they most will not make the grade, but the importance of young talent is obviously not lost on our rvials but is apparently the life blood of our club with no apprent investment in this part of the club either.
If young local talent is where the club sees its future, they appear to be failing here as well.
Didn't Mason Mount get picked up by Chelski aged 6?
And when I ran my eldest boys team (9) one of the lads was picked up by Norwich back in 1986.
Haven't got a clue how he got on :!
(02-07-2021, 11:29 AM)foxleyblue Wrote: [ -> ] (05-06-2021, 06:52 AM)spencerc Wrote: [ -> ]There has been lots of talk on here about homegrown talent and the fact that the club are looking to grown their own and eat what you kill. What is strange is, I run an under 6 club and there are always Chelsea, Scum and Brighton scouts at every game. In fact 3 of the lads a scum academy now, 1 plays scum and chelsea academies and 1 is Brighton.
I have never seen a pompey scout in the last 18 months. I know the three clubs are prem and have more resources to try and catch them young but does anyone know what age pompey start scouting. It strikes me that by the time we are looking, the prem clubs have had the best of our talent away and even at grass roots level, we are left with what no one else thought was good enough.
I know at 6, you couldnt possibly tell what a lad will be like and they most will not make the grade, but the importance of young talent is obviously not lost on our rvials but is apparently the life blood of our club with no apprent investment in this part of the club either.
If young local talent is where the club sees its future, they appear to be failing here as well.
Didn't Mason Mount get picked up by Chelski aged 6?
And when I ran my eldest boys team (9) one of the lads was picked up by Norwich back in 1986.
Haven't got a clue how he got on :!
As mentioned above
I guess all of the above is now reflected by the backroom staff having been moved on. The purchase of Roko also suggests we might see a completely different set up in place in the fairly near future. The managers comments this week also seem to suggest we could see the establishment of an U23 team sooner than we might have thought a year ago.
(02-07-2021, 04:16 PM)Hammie Wrote: [ -> ]I guess all of the above is now reflected by the backroom staff having been moved on. The purchase of Roko also suggests we might see a completely different set up in place in the fairly near future. The managers comments this week also seem to suggest we could see the establishment of an U23 team sooner than we might have thought a year ago.
Let's hope so as it's truly needed if we want to progress as a club.