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+--- Thread: The Academy (/showthread.php?tid=4290)
RE: The Academy - Cunninglinguist - 12-06-2024
The very fact that we now have championship status will make it easier to attract youngsters.
It should be remembered that it isn’t always easy for young kids to move away from their home area. Pompey need to play on that and being a recently successful club is a big tick in the box for local youngsters.
RE: The Academy - Isley46 - 13-06-2024
If any of the U16's or U14's coming to the end of their contract were offered terms elsewhere (especially at a CAT 1) I would expect they would jump at the chance to move on. Same with the present U18's but slightly more complicated (as they would need to be released from their contract ie, bought)
Simply because Academy is underfunded and no pathway. The latest crop to be released were promised minutes training time with first team and lower cup appearances to get experience - very tempting when offered scholarship terms. some had 1000 minutes training with first team as a 1st yr scholar under Cowley and minutes in cup appearances. This disappeared when Cowley left and academy took different direction.
Some think there is still fall out from the last Euro academy racism incident which the Americans clamped down heavily on and hence held back on funding etc
RE: The Academy - teeftwo - 13-06-2024
There are an awful lot of rose tinted glasses with regards the academy. If they were good enough to be at Cat 1 academies, they would already be there.
There are already over 3500 players in Category 1 academies. Realistically it is only products of Cat 1 that are going to make you any money. Academies now generally do not create players so they can advance the first team, they exist to produce product that can be sold based on potential.
Swansea City, with a Category 1 academy, made a grand total of £53 million in the last 10 years. They are 99th in the list of top 100 productive academies.
It is cheaper and easier to buy in players. There are far better things to spend money on to make the club successful than that.
RE: The Academy - mikey393 - 13-06-2024
(13-06-2024, 09:03 AM)Isley46 Wrote: If any of the U16's or U14's coming to the end of their contract were offered terms elsewhere (especially at a CAT 1) I would expect they would jump at the chance to move on. Same with the present U18's but slightly more complicated (as they would need to be released from their contract ie, bought)
Simply because Academy is underfunded and no pathway. The latest crop to be released were promised minutes training time with first team and lower cup appearances to get experience - very tempting when offered scholarship terms. some had 1000 minutes training with first team as a 1st yr scholar under Cowley and minutes in cup appearances. This disappeared when Cowley left and academy took different direction.
Some think there is still fall out from the last Euro academy racism incident which the Americans clamped down heavily on and hence held back on funding etc
The U18s reached the final of their Cup Competition but were all released after that game I believe?
Cowley had the right idea to take the club forward at all levels & a greaty pity that Mous hasn't taken on the reins.
This may well be down to the new Recruitment Director & overall funds available.
RE: The Academy - mikey393 - 13-06-2024
(13-06-2024, 10:40 AM)teeftwo Wrote: There are an awful lot of rose tinted glasses with regards the academy. If they were good enough to be at Cat 1 academies, they would already be there.
There are already over 3500 players in Category 1 academies. Realistically it is only products of Cat 1 that are going to make you any money. Academies now generally do not create players so they can advance the first team, they exist to produce product that can be sold based on potential.
Swansea City, with a Category 1 academy, made a grand total of £53 million in the last 10 years. They are 99th in the list of top 100 productive academies.
It is cheaper and easier to buy in players. There are far better things to spend money on to make the club successful than that.
So from your deductions we scrap all our teams except for the 1st team!
How short sighted a view is that?
The club needs the chance to rebuild the academy & apply for Cat 2 immediately then gradually work towards Cat 1.
Get in a top coaching team & improve the facilties which they are doing now.
The Academy was one of ME's areas to deliver on & I'm sure he will.
RE: The Academy - teeftwo - 13-06-2024
Why is it short sighted? It's a waste of money trying to go Cat 1, we simply cannot compete.
An academy would realistically serve a single purpose, community relations. But let's not fool ourselves. Chances of finding a prospect that hasn't been taken are miniscule
You are letting emotion get in the way of demonstrable facts. As our owners would say, do the math.
RE: The Academy - bluetagagain - 14-06-2024
(13-06-2024, 09:09 PM)mikey393 Wrote:Why do we need to spend millions, yes millions on an academy? To produce what?, far better to have a ‘reserve ‘ team to keep players fit and checkout those players out of contract such as Cat 1/2 academy players that the big clubs have let go. There must be thousands.(13-06-2024, 10:40 AM)teeftwo Wrote: There are an awful lot of rose tinted glasses with regards the academy. If they were good enough to be at Cat 1 academies, they would already be there.
There are already over 3500 players in Category 1 academies. Realistically it is only products of Cat 1 that are going to make you any money. Academies now generally do not create players so they can advance the first team, they exist to produce product that can be sold based on potential.
Swansea City, with a Category 1 academy, made a grand total of £53 million in the last 10 years. They are 99th in the list of top 100 productive academies.
It is cheaper and easier to buy in players. There are far better things to spend money on to make the club successful than that.
So from your deductions we scrap all our teams except for the 1st team!
How short sighted a view is that?
The club needs the chance to rebuild the academy & apply for Cat 2 immediately then gradually work towards Cat 1.
Get in a top coaching team & improve the facilties which they are doing now.
The Academy was one of ME's areas to deliver on & I'm sure he will.
RE: The Academy - mikey393 - 14-06-2024
(14-06-2024, 02:48 PM)bluetagagain Wrote:(13-06-2024, 09:09 PM)mikey393 Wrote:Why do we need to spend millions, yes millions on an academy? To produce what?, far better to have a ‘reserve ‘ team to keep players fit and checkout those players out of contract such as Cat 1/2 academy players that the big clubs have let go. There must be thousands.(13-06-2024, 10:40 AM)teeftwo Wrote: There are an awful lot of rose tinted glasses with regards the academy. If they were good enough to be at Cat 1 academies, they would already be there.
There are already over 3500 players in Category 1 academies. Realistically it is only products of Cat 1 that are going to make you any money. Academies now generally do not create players so they can advance the first team, they exist to produce product that can be sold based on potential.
Swansea City, with a Category 1 academy, made a grand total of £53 million in the last 10 years. They are 99th in the list of top 100 productive academies.
It is cheaper and easier to buy in players. There are far better things to spend money on to make the club successful than that.
So from your deductions we scrap all our teams except for the 1st team!
How short sighted a view is that?
The club needs the chance to rebuild the academy & apply for Cat 2 immediately then gradually work towards Cat 1.
Get in a top coaching team & improve the facilties which they are doing now.
The Academy was one of ME's areas to deliver on & I'm sure he will.
A Reserve Team would be good that plays in the U21/23 league.
They need to be competitive so they can step up when injuries occur which they will.
RE: The Academy - mikey393 - 14-06-2024
(13-06-2024, 09:47 PM)teeftwo Wrote: Why is it short sighted? It's a waste of money trying to go Cat 1, we simply cannot compete.
An academy would realistically serve a single purpose, community relations. But let's not fool ourselves. Chances of finding a prospect that hasn't been taken are miniscule
You are letting emotion get in the way of demonstrable facts. As our owners would say, do the math.
ME's philosophy "One Brick at a time".
Need to get Cat 2 first build up a strong base with good coaching then when ready go for Cat 1 could be 2-3 years away.
Yes, Community Relations, give local youngsters a chance to get on the football pyramid.
Not all youngsters want to travel 120 mile round trip 3 times /wk trainig then matches.
Mason Mount is a very good example. Local lad from Petersfield?
Picked up by Chelsea only due to lack of a local alternative.
BTW another reason fot top Cat 1 clubs creaming the market is that they are being creamed by top European clubs.
In England academy graduates can't sign full playing contracts until 17.
In Europe it's 16 hence the nervousness!
RE: The Academy - bluetagagain - 15-06-2024
Mickey how much do think it would cost the Eisners to set up a proper Grade 2 academy? and how many years do you think it would be before we produce ( let’s say 6) players who when sold ( or would be worth) would re coup the Eisners their money. IMO we don’t need an academy especially with the top clubs in the world buying anyone decent that’s just hit puberty.
RE: The Academy - Hammie - 15-06-2024
The infrastructure needed for a grade 1 is simply ridiculous, just turns out spoilt tippy tappy players who carry on being spoilt and tippy tappy in the U23 league.
I'm not sure what the options are for a genuine reserve team league?
As shown this week, produce anything decent and they are taken away for peanuts anyway.
It does look better now to take them at 20+ very sadly as we love a home grown youngster coming through.
I guess we can let Chelsea do all the leg work and take them back when they are mostly developed.
RE: The Academy - Cunninglinguist - 16-06-2024
(15-06-2024, 06:12 PM)Hammie Wrote: The infrastructure needed for a grade 1 is simply ridiculous, just turns out spoilt tippy tappy players who carry on being spoilt and tippy tappy in the U23 league.
I'm not sure what the options are for a genuine reserve team league?
As shown this week, produce anything decent and they are taken away for peanuts anyway.
It does look better now to take them at 20+ very sadly as we love a home grown youngster coming through.
I guess we can let Chelsea do all the leg work and take them back when they are mostly developed.
Totally agree with your comments about the infrastructure, Hammie.
What a load of old bollocks! Who decides, or cares, about Cat. whatever? It’s a total nonsense!
Provide decent facilities and effective coaching and then sell the club to the youngsters, as a place where they can learn their trade and (if they’re good enough) they have a real opportunity to progress. IMO, a reserve team is the key. That jump from apprentice to first team is huge. The opportunity to play against grown men would be invaluable. Give them a path to success.
Crewe had an excellent reputation for producing a long line of successful trainees. The term Cat 1 had never even been coined. It’s all just a very clever marketing ploy, to create a league system of ‘academies’.
RE: The Academy - teeftwo - 16-06-2024
Well that's simple then and won't cost a penny. Setting up decent facilities is well known to only cost £57.36.
I'm sure if we set up an academy outside the framework of the academy system then all those great, highly qualified youth coaches will flock to our door and work for a reduced wage.
You won't of course be able to play in the academy youth league system as that's for academies in the system but I'm sure that something can be arranged like playing in the local youth league which will be guaranteed to produce top level players.
Crewe had. Had. Do they still?
Honestly I'm suprised no one else has thought of this, it's genius.
RE: The Academy - bluebollox - 16-06-2024
(14-06-2024, 04:03 PM)mikey393 Wrote:(14-06-2024, 02:48 PM)bluetagagain Wrote:(13-06-2024, 09:09 PM)mikey393 Wrote:Why do we need to spend millions, yes millions on an academy? To produce what?, far better to have a ‘reserve ‘ team to keep players fit and checkout those players out of contract such as Cat 1/2 academy players that the big clubs have let go. There must be thousands.(13-06-2024, 10:40 AM)teeftwo Wrote: There are an awful lot of rose tinted glasses with regards the academy. If they were good enough to be at Cat 1 academies, they would already be there.
There are already over 3500 players in Category 1 academies. Realistically it is only products of Cat 1 that are going to make you any money. Academies now generally do not create players so they can advance the first team, they exist to produce product that can be sold based on potential.
Swansea City, with a Category 1 academy, made a grand total of £53 million in the last 10 years. They are 99th in the list of top 100 productive academies.
It is cheaper and easier to buy in players. There are far better things to spend money on to make the club successful than that.
So from your deductions we scrap all our teams except for the 1st team!
How short sighted a view is that?
The club needs the chance to rebuild the academy & apply for Cat 2 immediately then gradually work towards Cat 1.
Get in a top coaching team & improve the facilties which they are doing now.
The Academy was one of ME's areas to deliver on & I'm sure he will.
A Reserve Team would be good that plays in the U21/23 league.
They need to be competitive so they can step up when injuries occur which they will.
Mikey if we want to put a reserve team out & play in the reserve league we have to have cat 1 academy iirc.
RE: The Academy - teeftwo - 16-06-2024
I wish those calling for an academy would at least do the bare minimum of research before making these suggestions.
Right now the justification for creating a million pound plus outside the academy system facility is based on Field of Dreams.
RE: The Academy - firqdays - 16-06-2024
The whole debate keeps returning to the viability of an Academy concept and attempting to capture young talent at very tender years.
Far from identifying players at puberty it is now commonplace for most clubs to capture potential youngsters at primary s chool age, which does bring me to repeat my earlier point i.e. -
At what age do footballers reach their athletic maturity these days ? - probably not until mid 20's , which in itself discredits the academy policy.
Is it now worthy of the cost ?
RE: The Academy - Cunninglinguist - 16-06-2024
(16-06-2024, 05:15 AM)teeftwo Wrote: Well that's simple then and won't cost a penny. Setting up decent facilities is well known to only cost £57.36.
I'm sure if we set up an academy outside the framework of the academy system then all those great, highly qualified youth coaches will flock to our door and work for a reduced wage.
You won't of course be able to play in the academy youth league system as that's for academies in the system but I'm sure that something can be arranged like playing in the local youth league which will be guaranteed to produce top level players.
Crewe had. Had. Do they still?
Honestly I'm suprised no one else has thought of this, it's genius.
Very scathing, Teef. It was more a frustrated comment at the status quo. Our game has been railroaded into this stupid situation and until we all wake up to all this nonsense, it’s only going to get worse.
Of course, we could all just accept it and rant on about needing to have a CAT 1 academy because that’s what we have been told is necessary.
Crewe had, now they don’t. Look at the reasons for why.
I accept that £57.36 probably won’t cut it but what does an academy actually need?
RE: The Academy - Cunninglinguist - 16-06-2024
The subject has got me searching.
For anyone interested………
https://www.viewfromthetouchline.com/2023/10/31/the-railway-road-to-success/
RE: The Academy - bluetagagain - 16-06-2024
Genuine question , do you need an academy to have a reserve/ U21/23 team(s)?
RE: The Academy - Hammie - 16-06-2024
Perhaps the American NFL system is better. All players get trained through the college system and get an education.
Then the professional clubs take them when they're ready for the pro leagues.
Most of all, the least successful team get first pick, then can sell on to the money bags franchises
RE: The Academy - Cunninglinguist - 16-06-2024
(16-06-2024, 10:07 AM)bluetagagain Wrote: Genuine question , do you need an academy to have a reserve/ U21/23 team(s)?
I would say that you’d probably need a youth squad in addition but they need to progress to adult football somehow.
I think the questions need asking and lots of them.
Why a tier system for academies?
Who does it benefit???
RE: The Academy - teeftwo - 16-06-2024
(16-06-2024, 10:07 AM)bluetagagain Wrote: Genuine question , do you need an academy to have a reserve/ U21/23 team(s)?
No. But if you want to play all the other decent U21/U23 teams then you have to have a Cat 1 academy as that's a prerequisite for competing in that competition.
So match practice would be minimal or would have to be against far inferior opposition. Which is pointless.
RE: The Academy - teeftwo - 16-06-2024
The NFL system is great but only works in a closed loop. You'd have to say goodbye to promotion and relegation.
RE: The Academy - Cunninglinguist - 16-06-2024
I take it that the majority of clubs are not CAT 1, so I hardly see that the competition would be against inferior opposition. Why would it be pointless?
RE: The Academy - teeftwo - 17-06-2024
Read the above links about the success rate at academies. The chances of finding a player who will graduate to the first team are miniscule, and diminish proportionately when you have inferior facilities to the competition. These are not musings, these are the facts of the matter following a ten year review of the entire UK academy system.
So you have to ask, is it money well spent? Would you ever be likely to produce a player that would either a) save you money on buying in talent (whether raw or fully formed) or b) be good enough to be sold to cover the costs of the entire academy for the time the player was in the system and make a profit.
Given how things are now, and discounting ancient history, you simply would not undertake something like this in any other business.
And football is a business.
The risk/return ration is absurdly high. You simply cannot justify the outlay on the off chance that in 5-10 years time you may, in a less than 100-1 chance, have a player worth something.