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If We Could Turn Back the Clock? - Pompey_in_Derby - 29-09-2021
How many on here wish we had remained owned by the PST?
I joined the Trust, voted against selling out, attended PST meetings all over the country, spent hundreds of hours discussing all things Pompey with some of the Trust Board and was at the meeting at the Guildhall.
Though Mark Catlin was an excellent administrator, I believe his head was turned by a promise of a promotion by the Tornante Group. Some of the financial stuff leaked the week before the vote was embarrassing...... e.g. comments about zero 'fortune income' from Cup revenues, transfer sales etc were simply ridiculous. I recall challenging Micah Hall (who I respect for his efforts in the darkest days in our history) about these assumptions but never received a straight answer. The following years have fully justified my comments about just how much 'fortune income' we have generated - player sales, FA Cup runs, EFL Trophy finals etc. This income would have covered the stadium health and safety costs and left some money for a transfer kitty.
Even allowing for the disruption from the pandemic, a fans-owned club would have had access to so much more emotional goodwill than a bog-standard plaything controlled by rich owners. Exceptional circumstances would have generated exceptional solutions whatever they may have been. A PST-owned club would have managed despite all the challenges.
Am sure most Pompey fans want to watch local players wear the royal blue shirt. However, the issue I struggle to work out is the best approach to take to develop youth team players while creating the right environment to maximise their potential. Take Chelsea as an extreme example - poaching young prospects from all over the South from age 6 (e.g. Mason Mount) - they must have hundreds, possibly thousands of youngsters on their radar.
Yet, how many of these Chelsea youngsters started tonight's so called 'Champions League' match away to Juventus?
Zero - in fact they had no British players in that starting line-up!!
Brentford have thrived using a buy cheap, sell high model which could make academies worthless. So, maybe we should have instigated an innovative approach to develop our academy?
Turning the clock back to the pre-Eisner days, I'd have been happy for a unique attitude to recruitment .... by Football league standards......... that still applies and works for a handful of clubs in the Basque Country:
Only sign players who are local!
This would mean PO postcode plus an extension northwards into Jimmy Dickinson territory (a few GU postcodes). Could also apply the Jack Charlton Irish trick to include anyone from the Pompey diaspora whose parents or grandparents are PO born and bred!
A lengthy post, but why not?
RE: If We Could Turn Back the Clock? - Hammie - 29-09-2021
just don't think the ground would still be open. The South and especially the North both had serious structural issues that have cost a fortune to put right.
Out of interest I wonder how much Wimbledon have spent on their new ground. Maybe we could have funded something like that as fans?
RE: If We Could Turn Back the Clock? - BilltheCat - 29-09-2021
P-i-D.
You will surely shouted down by all those who will tell you that the Trust did not have the capability to invest in Fratton Park. There is little evidence for this. Yes, money was needed but it did not have to be found immediately. Player sales and cup runs actually brought in a considerable amount of revenue.
There are quite a few threads on this topic. On one I provided many quotes from Catlin saying that community-ownership was the way forward and was perfectly sustainable. Catlin's head wasn't turned by the prospect of promotion but by a far bigger salary!
Too many people bought his lie and subsequently voted to sell.
And here we are..........
RE: If We Could Turn Back the Clock? - ForeverPompey - 30-09-2021
I am one that firmly believes the Trust could not have kept us afloat during Covid and developed the playing squad and spent the vast sums needed to stop the ground being shut down piecemeal. I 'bought the lie' and I still believe I was right, but time will tell.
RE: If We Could Turn Back the Clock? - Hammie - 30-09-2021
To answer my own question.
Wimbledon's new ground cost £30 million
With a capacity of 9300 seats
Would a new ground for Pompey be any cheaper
Could us fans have financed £30 million for a capacity half of what we have at the moment?
RE: If We Could Turn Back the Clock? - TBP - 30-09-2021
(30-09-2021, 09:58 AM)Hammie Wrote: To answer my own question.
Wimbledon's new ground cost £30 million
With a capacity of 9300 seats
Would a new ground for Pompey be any cheaper
Could us fans have financed £30 million for a capacity half of what we have at the moment?
They also had a very supportive local council rather than one that won't even find the money for a new footbridge over a railway line. What a pity the Minister for Portsmouth wasn't pressed for a new ground. Sunderland got one like that.
RE: If We Could Turn Back the Clock? - slayer - 30-09-2021
I think we would be playing in front of two closed stands if we were still PST owned.
I also think the grand donations would have escalated to £500 a year.
RE: If We Could Turn Back the Clock? - teeftwo - 30-09-2021
The Trust would have had to borrow to get the necessary investment the ground required, to buy a training ground, to improve facilities. As far as I'm aware the club doesn't currently have any loan debt, surely a status that would not have been the case under the Trust.
We would have maintained a League 1 status at best, probably with a 12,000 capacity.
I'm happy with the way I voted.
RE: If We Could Turn Back the Clock? - DeepBlue - 30-09-2021
(30-09-2021, 02:03 PM)teeftwo Wrote: The Trust would have had to borrow to get the necessary investment the ground required, to buy a training ground, to improve facilities. As far as I'm aware the club doesn't currently have any loan debt, surely a status that would not have been the case under the Trust.
We would have maintained a League 1 status at best, probably with a 12,000 capacity.
I'm happy with the way I voted.
I don't think the trust would have survived the 15 months without income, and no banks were lending money for that.
RE: If We Could Turn Back the Clock? - Wightblue - 30-09-2021
teeftwo
On a general note, debt/loans are not of necessity a bad thing, many on this Board will have a considerable debt called a mortgage, they knowingly took on the debt to buy an asset ie a house to live in and avoiding wasting money on rent. They probably had an eye to appreciation in value of their asset and accepted the interest charge that went with mortgage.
If The Trust had taken on debt to improve/ maintain the ground, the debt would have been accompanied by an increase of the value of the Asset being improved (and hence the NAV ) thus having a minimal effect on The Balance Sheet.
Provided PFC could pay off the interest as it was due from its revenue stream, I don’t see a problem and, interest rates secured against an asset like the ground, would have been at a low rate.
The same with ROKO, provided PFC paid no more than the going rate for the facility, the debt interest should have been sustainable and the price paid transferred to Tangible Assets in The Balance Sheet.
I very much doubt that Eisner will put in cash or PFC will in fact take on debt with regard to the ground improvements.
As I understand it, the work will take 4 to 5 years and will only increase capacity by c.5,000. That surely indicates that the work will be financed from the Club’s revenue stream not Eisner or debt, something the Trust could have done equally as well.
As you are happy with your sale to Eisner that is great, I applaud you.
I only seek to show that the sale to Eisner might not have been the only game in town.
Interesting to note that, with the exception of Bury FC, no other L1 or L2 club has gone bust since the start of Covid, many exist on gates, much, much smaller than ours, perhaps football clubs, their owners and fans are more resilient than many give them credit for.
RE: If We Could Turn Back the Clock? - firqdays - 30-09-2021
Rightly or wrongly I also, as a trust shareholder, 'bought the dream' and opted for the Eisner sales pitch.
But currently - being pragmatic and facing cold reality, I cannot bring myself to believe that the Trust could have survived the enforced cost issues of sustaining the club in its present form at the deteriorating Fratton Park !
Suddenly, and whether it's part due to this awful time we have endured, our minds are now being concentrated more keenly by unpleasant thoughts concerning the club we love, and supporters cross-examining each release of information more keenly.
The owners , I am sure, do get to read all the forum comments, either directly, or via the boardroom and it is only by forensic threads (similar to Pompey in Derby) that more 'glasnost' may come to pass and the fans fairly rewarded by comprehensive and sincere explanations of things affecting Portsmouth Football Club !
RE: If We Could Turn Back the Clock? - DeepBlue - 30-09-2021
(30-09-2021, 03:25 PM)Wightblue Wrote: teeftwo
On a general note, debt/loans are not of necessity a bad thing, many on this Board will have a considerable debt called a mortgage, they knowingly took on the debt to buy an asset ie a house to live in and avoiding wasting money on rent. They probably had an eye to appreciation in value of their asset and accepted the interest charge that went with mortgage.
If The Trust had taken on debt to improve/ maintain the ground, the debt would have been accompanied by an increase of the value of the Asset being improved (and hence the NAV ) thus having a minimal effect on The Balance Sheet.
Provided PFC could pay off the interest as it was due from its revenue stream, I don’t see a problem and, interest rates secured against an asset like the ground, would have been at a low rate.
The same with ROKO, provided PFC paid no more than the going rate for the facility, the debt interest should have been sustainable and the price paid transferred to Tangible Assets in The Balance Sheet.
I very much doubt that Eisner will put in cash or PFC will in fact take on debt with regard to the ground improvements.
As I understand it, the work will take 4 to 5 years and will only increase capacity by c.5,000. That surely indicates that the work will be financed from the Club’s revenue stream not Eisner or debt, something the Trust could have done equally as well.
As you are happy with your sale to Eisner that is great, I applaud you.
I only seek to show that the sale to Eisner might not have been the only game in town.
Interesting to note that, with the exception of Bury FC, no other L1 or L2 club has gone bust since the start of Covid, many exist on gates, much, much smaller than ours, perhaps football clubs, their owners and fans are more resilient than many give them credit for.
agree with much of that ... but let down by the 'i very much doubt Eisner will put in cash...'.
We know he has already put in £10m cash for ground works ...it's in the published accounts, and he has committed to the planned works. There is absolutely no reason to think he would try to fund that from the revenue, because he has also made it quite clear that the playing side is an 'eat what you kill' policy, which he has only broken to pay the wages during covid.
RE: If We Could Turn Back the Clock? - Hammie - 30-09-2021
and the finally released development reports for each stand do show that there is a deal of long term planning going on. Building a North Stand lower, designed for a new top to be added when the cable is cleared, must be the first long term planning at Fratton in a Century or more.
RE: If We Could Turn Back the Clock? - Jizbag - 30-09-2021
I was happy that Eisner took over, mainly because in hindsight he did a number on us at the presentation. All this talk about not building a new ground further than 10 miles away was just pulling wool over our eyes. The main reason I wanted them in was the ground....after seeing their plans for it so far, I've changed my mind. I also stupidly thought they had ambition for the club but it appears the only ambition they have is to increase their bank balance by slowly improving the ground and owning the training ground in order to turn a profit when they decide to sell.
I don't think they give a toss about Portsmouth Football Club other than as an asset that they can sell.
RE: If We Could Turn Back the Clock? - Pedalo_menders - 30-09-2021
It is a good idea for PFC to own ROKO sports center as it boosts revenues too. So if the EFL bring in any more stupid rules linked to turnover, it may help our position.
Completely agree with your points Jizz. Feel like ive been lead up the garden path by the Eisners. The frustration is that they have so little experience of football and havent appointed anyone who can tell them what's what. There ambition in reality is significantly short of what they promised at the Guild Hall.
RE: If We Could Turn Back the Clock? - countofmontecristo - 30-09-2021
PST from the day one and went with the Eisner's.
It saved us from a lot of hassle and trouble. It really did.
I personally think that they were sure we would build a stadium and FP would be houses.
Therefore get their money back quickly and possibly pay for the ground and set up an even more tangible asset.
The biggest issue was the clamour to stay at FP, which was a big mistake.
I have had recent issues with a friend who lost limbs in Afghanistan and the lack of facilities for him are atrocious.
The vending stands cannot make money the way they are set up.
The place is archaic, it has a fantastic atmosphere, agreed, but its just not set up for 2021 and onwards.
We should have had a new ground !!
Hospitality boxes, decent function rooms, lifts, etc..
I think the Eisner's have done well committing money to FP and its repairs.
We asked for them and we asked for FP.
RE: If We Could Turn Back the Clock? - exgaffer - 30-09-2021
I was really happy to be a shareholder and being a part owner of this great club was fantastic.
At the same time, I am a realist, unlike some of the ‘money no object’ crew.
I am firmly of the belief that if we were still fan owned, far from investing money in the ground, we would have been in severe financial difficulties. Having owners with a bit of money helped mitigate the fact that we had virtually no income due to the COVID measures.
There is a contradiction in the logic. Some of you want the club to be fan owned on the one hand, but think we should be spending lots more money on the other. In the absence of very rich Pompey fans who are prepared to spend a lot of their wealth on the club, the two positions are irreconcilable.
We all want success, we all love the club, but there is a difference between the real world and fantasyland.
RE: If We Could Turn Back the Clock? - 66zoolane - 30-09-2021
This was posted on The Pompey Chimes ref the Eisners.
Anyone else think they are getting a lot of stick.
They may not be the perfect owner but we could be in a far worse position.
-Spent a couple of million on roko
-Spending ten million-ish on fratton park
-Also spent loads trying to keep crowds by getting safety certificates.
-Academy top and unbeaten so far (so unfair to say no investment or could just be luck)
-also through COVID still funded with out any ticket/food sales.
Ten years ago every pompey fan was desperate for a sustainable model now we are being run like that they are getting abuse.
We also probably do have a very decent wage budget for this league but a huge chunk is being sucked up by Harrison, marquis, Curtis, downing, jacobs and harness all players Cowley was touting about in the paper trying to sell.
The club would of struggling to keep fratton park open let alone get a competitive squad together if we were still under fan ownership.
It might just be my opinion but we could do far worse just look at derby and many other clubs
RE: If We Could Turn Back the Clock? - exgaffer - 30-09-2021
(30-09-2021, 07:05 PM)66zoolane Wrote: This was posted on The Pompey Chimes ref the Eisners.
Anyone else think they are getting a lot of stick.
They may not be the perfect owner but we could be in a far worse position.
-Spent a couple of million on roko
-Spending ten million-ish on fratton park
-Also spent loads trying to keep crowds by getting safety certificates.
-Academy top and unbeaten so far (so unfair to say no investment or could just be luck)
-also through COVID still funded with out any ticket/food sales.
Ten years ago every pompey fan was desperate for a sustainable model now we are being run like that they are getting abuse.
We also probably do have a very decent wage budget for this league but a huge chunk is being sucked up by Harrison, marquis, Curtis, downing, jacobs and harness all players Cowley was touting about in the paper trying to sell.
The club would of struggling to keep fratton park open let alone get a competitive squad together if we were still under fan ownership.
It might just be my opinion but we could do far worse just look at derby and many other clubs
Spot on.
RE: If We Could Turn Back the Clock? - MiltonPFC - 30-09-2021
I’m happy with how I voted as a shareholder …
The PST did a great job to save the club … I’m proud to have been part of that … but it felt like good natured / well meaning amateurish dabbling at the end … and the time was right for secured investment (which was not possible to achieve via the fans)
RE: If We Could Turn Back the Clock? - Gerry Hatrick - 01-10-2021
The pandemic has skewed the picture about whether the Eisner's are better than the Trust and whether they have kept their promises. We haven't made any progress since they took over but then you could argue that all bets were off when Covid hit.
Was it reasonable to expect them to keep to those pledges of progress in the light of this completely unexpected development?
What is being done is purely maintenance and essential work - not so much brick-by-brick but repointing work.
We are patching up the team to maintain our League One status as much as we are patching up Fratton Park and that's the way things will stay for a while yet.
Just as it's going to take a generation to return our national debt to pre-Covid levels, Tornante will seek to balance the books before we see any proper progress.
RE: If We Could Turn Back the Clock? - exgaffer - 01-10-2021
(01-10-2021, 07:08 AM)Gerry Hatrick Wrote: The pandemic has skewed the picture about whether the Eisner's are better than the Trust and whether they have kept their promises. We haven't made any progress since they took over but then you could argue that all bets were off when Covid hit.
Was it reasonable to expect them to keep to those pledges of progress in the light of this completely unexpected development?
What is being done is purely maintenance and essential work - not so much brick-by-brick but repointing work.
We are patching up the team to maintain our League One status as much as we are patching up Fratton Park and that's the way things will stay for a while yet.
Just as it's going to take a generation to return our national debt to pre-Covid levels, Tornante will seek to balance the books before we see any proper progress.
Well I wouldn’t call totally rebuilding the North Stand Lower, the Milton End and the South Stand seating ‘repointing’, you have a funny idea of ‘maintenance’.
RE: If We Could Turn Back the Clock? - BilltheCat - 01-10-2021
(30-09-2021, 10:33 PM)MiltonPFC Wrote: well meaning amateurish dabbling
And how would you describe the Eisner ownership?
RE: If We Could Turn Back the Clock? - Gerry Hatrick - 01-10-2021
(01-10-2021, 07:41 AM)exgaffer Wrote:(01-10-2021, 07:08 AM)Gerry Hatrick Wrote: The pandemic has skewed the picture about whether the Eisner's are better than the Trust and whether they have kept their promises. We haven't made any progress since they took over but then you could argue that all bets were off when Covid hit.
Was it reasonable to expect them to keep to those pledges of progress in the light of this completely unexpected development?
What is being done is purely maintenance and essential work - not so much brick-by-brick but repointing work.
We are patching up the team to maintain our League One status as much as we are patching up Fratton Park and that's the way things will stay for a while yet.
Just as it's going to take a generation to return our national debt to pre-Covid levels, Tornante will seek to balance the books before we see any proper progress.
Well I wouldn’t call totally rebuilding the North Stand Lower, the Milton End and the South Stand seating ‘repointing’, you have a funny idea of ‘maintenance’.
'Essential works' if you prefer.
RE: If We Could Turn Back the Clock? - Smirnoffexpress - 01-10-2021
Were is the evidence that 10 million has been spent on ground improvements?