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+--- Thread: Where do you see the club in 5 years ? (/showthread.php?tid=1493)
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RE: Where do you see the club in 5 years ? - Rocketman - 02-02-2022
I voted for the Eisner deal too and had invested my £1K. I would do the same again now (unless we get a better deal offered from elsewhere, which doesn't seem to be the case. One of the things he said to us at that Town Hall meeting was that it might be slow and sure but he wasn't going to throw silly money at the club. For those of us who run businesses we know that is the right approach. Ex-G is absolutely right in his summary. It's very easy criticising people for what they do or don't do with other people's money and the anti-Eisners need to come up with an alternative realistic way forward (but they can't). On Cowley, not sure if he's the right man or not, but time (this season) will tell. Like many others on here, I criticised him for not playing Jacobs from the getgo on Monday, but he answered that very well when he explained that Jacobs had been isolating all week. Hopefully we'll see him play 90 mins on Sat, and have Curtis on the wing.
RE: Where do you see the club in 5 years ? - mikey393 - 02-02-2022
(02-02-2022, 07:40 PM)briefcase_wanchor Wrote: My firm belief is that the Eisners due diligence was woefully short of where it should have been, especially with regard to the state of the ground. Yes they knew there were issues but not the full extent and for that we can add extra years into their timeframe for on-field progress. I’ve seen dd into a football club purchase first hand and these issues would have been identified if it had been carried out to the right standard.
I totally agree with the due diligence as a full structural survey should have been taken out by a commercial surveyors.
It's very much like buying a house the bank/building society insist on a survey & full report before they'll lend against the property.
It sounds like this didn't happen as they didn't take out a bank loan against the ground?
The ground looked dreadful on Monday night with all th eenforced empty spaces.
Not sure what the attendance was?
The more I think about it the greater reasons for moving.
RE: Where do you see the club in 5 years ? - Rick Pumpkin - 02-02-2022
Mikey, just over 14k Pompey but that's including ST holders who didn't go. I know four of them and I'd guess they weren't the only ones.
RE: Where do you see the club in 5 years ? - exgaffer - 02-02-2022
(02-02-2022, 09:48 PM)mikey393 Wrote:(02-02-2022, 07:40 PM)briefcase_wanchor Wrote: My firm belief is that the Eisners due diligence was woefully short of where it should have been, especially with regard to the state of the ground. Yes they knew there were issues but not the full extent and for that we can add extra years into their timeframe for on-field progress. I’ve seen dd into a football club purchase first hand and these issues would have been identified if it had been carried out to the right standard.
I totally agree with the due diligence as a full structural survey should have been taken out by a commercial surveyors.
It's very much like buying a house the bank/building society insist on a survey & full report before they'll lend against the property.
It sounds like this didn't happen as they didn't take out a bank loan against the ground?
The ground looked dreadful on Monday night with all th eenforced empty spaces.
Not sure what the attendance was?
The more I think about it the greater reasons for moving.
The ground is going to look dreadful when it’s being worked on isn’t it?
The ground isn’t the problem, it’s the football being played.
RE: Where do you see the club in 5 years ? - Hammie - 02-02-2022
as regards due diligence on the ground
I recall Eisner saying that anyone who has done up an old house knows there will be expensive surprises along the way. Probably far more than they hoped for but a century or so of neglect really does not come cheap to fix.
RE: Where do you see the club in 5 years ? - Cunninglinguist - 03-02-2022
If the due diligence, on the ground, was lacking, the.ones to have to sort that out are the purchasers.
It seems to me that that is what they are doing. The Trust, or any other prospective owner, would have been faced with exactly the same bill. Anyone who thinks Pompey were bargain price, need a reality check. In effect, the Eisner's bought a huge bill.
When we gained promotion to the PL, many fans realised that (by whatever means) we had a fantastic team playing in a decrepit stadium that was too small to sustain an extended stay in the top flight. The infrastructure was woeful. I am far more confident that Pompey will survive and thrive in years to come.
We're having an average season but one day we'll go up and then we'll have more average seasons with less chance of promotion. One day we will probably suffer relegation, from whatever league we are in at the time. One day we might win something again.
Welcome to being a football fan.
PUP
RE: Where do you see the club in 5 years ? - exgaffer - 03-02-2022
(03-02-2022, 06:27 AM)Cunninglinguist Wrote: If the due diligence, on the ground, was lacking, the.ones to have to sort that out are the purchasers.
It seems to me that that is what they are doing. The Trust, or any other prospective owner, would have been faced with exactly the same bill. Anyone who thinks Pompey were bargain price, need a reality check. In effect, the Eisner's bought a huge bill.
When we gained promotion to the PL, many fans realised that (by whatever means) we had a fantastic team playing in a decrepit stadium that was too small to sustain an extended stay in the top flight. The infrastructure was woeful. I am far more confident that Pompey will survive and thrive in years to come.
We're having an average season but one day we'll go up and then we'll have more average seasons with less chance of promotion. One day we will probably suffer relegation, from whatever league we are in at the time. One day we might win something again.
Welcome to being a football fan.
PUP
Well said Cunning, sums up the situation perfectly.
RE: Where do you see the club in 5 years ? - Jizbag - 03-02-2022
The problem I see with the long view is the attendances will drop as people get fed up with the fayre on show and the lack of ambition on the pitch. I know a lot of people who don’t bother going anymore, got out of the habit and all the time the team is failing they won’t be going back.
RE: Where do you see the club in 5 years ? - bluetagagain - 03-02-2022
I’m more than happy with what the Eisners are doing to FP, I just hate the way they don’t understand our attachment to this club and it’s city. We know promotion isn’t our right but to see the team and management being weakened? Season after season is hard to stomach. We’re not asking for millions to be spent on the team, just enough to challenge and be entertained occasionally. At the moment ( and the last few seasons) FP has been a depressing place to visit and very hard to form any sort of attachment to the team.
If it was a school support it would probably read:
Ground improvements and infrastructure A+
Team and morale - F
RE: Where do you see the club in 5 years ? - mikey393 - 03-02-2022
(02-02-2022, 10:47 PM)Hammie Wrote: as regards due diligence on the ground
I recall Eisner saying that anyone who has done up an old house knows there will be expensive surprises along the way. Probably far more than they hoped for but a century or so of neglect really does not come cheap to fix.
With due respect Eisner's quote is a pile of rubbish. I used to work in Mortgage Publishing & know quite a bit about surveys.
If a full structural survey had been done which strips the structure bear all this would have come out & they would been advised to either Not buy in the first place or have it bulldozed for flats. It's in a prime central area & land is very expensive to buy. The money generated could have been used to move to another site like Tipnor or similar.
The Club has 4 Main assets in what ever order you want to list them:
1) Ground
2) Team
3) Supporters
4) Management
To be able to operate a club successfully you need all four elements.
RE: Where do you see the club in 5 years ? - Cunninglinguist - 05-02-2022
Having had to rectify so many faults not picked up in surveys, over the years, I can confirm that they aren’t with the paper they’re written on. So many disclaimers.
RE: Where do you see the club in 5 years ? - briefcase_wanchor - 05-02-2022
(05-02-2022, 06:11 AM)Cunninglinguist Wrote: Having had to rectify so many faults not picked up in surveys, over the years, I can confirm that they aren’t with the paper they’re written on. So many disclaimers.
Seen it first-hand too from a professional standpoint and there are (like in any profession) some shabby individuals or outfits - they are ultimately culpable and insured - but there are also some firms which on reputation alone are retained in circumstances such as this. As has been said, the ground was one of the 2 biggest assets so you would be bang sure of all the issues before buying. It's inexplicable that they weren't. That's the frustrating thing. It's all very well saying they didn't but they are now putting it right so hats off to them, but that has had an impact upon their overall investment budget and hence team investment, which is why Tena shares have gone up.
RE: Where do you see the club in 5 years ? - DeepBlue - 05-02-2022
(05-02-2022, 11:46 AM)briefcase_wanchor Wrote:(05-02-2022, 06:11 AM)Cunninglinguist Wrote: Having had to rectify so many faults not picked up in surveys, over the years, I can confirm that they aren’t with the paper they’re written on. So many disclaimers.
Seen it first-hand too from a professional standpoint and there are (like in any profession) some shabby individuals or outfits - they are ultimately culpable and insured - but there are also some firms which on reputation alone are retained in circumstances such as this. As has been said, the ground was one of the 2 biggest assets so you would be bang sure of all the issues before buying. It's inexplicable that they weren't. That's the frustrating thing. It's all very well saying they didn't but they are now putting it right so hats off to them, but that has had an impact upon their overall investment budget and hence team investment, which is why Tena shares have gone up.
Why are people assuming that the due diligence was not done on the ground ? Surely the fact that the first thing they did was put £10m in a pot to spend on the ground says they knew exactly what needed doing. All the talk at the time was about spending on the ground.
The only changes since have been as the result of changes to H&S regs, which have led to the current ground works becoming urgent. Not sure how they could have been foreseen.
RE: Where do you see the club in 5 years ? - Hammie - 05-02-2022
the land is worth a fortune
conveniently ignores the fact that both the Milton and and north terrace are constructed on industrially polluted clinker which costs a fortune to clear.
RE: Where do you see the club in 5 years ? - briefcase_wanchor - 05-02-2022
(05-02-2022, 12:43 PM)DeepBlue Wrote:(05-02-2022, 11:46 AM)briefcase_wanchor Wrote:(05-02-2022, 06:11 AM)Cunninglinguist Wrote: Having had to rectify so many faults not picked up in surveys, over the years, I can confirm that they aren’t with the paper they’re written on. So many disclaimers.
Seen it first-hand too from a professional standpoint and there are (like in any profession) some shabby individuals or outfits - they are ultimately culpable and insured - but there are also some firms which on reputation alone are retained in circumstances such as this. As has been said, the ground was one of the 2 biggest assets so you would be bang sure of all the issues before buying. It's inexplicable that they weren't. That's the frustrating thing. It's all very well saying they didn't but they are now putting it right so hats off to them, but that has had an impact upon their overall investment budget and hence team investment, which is why Tena shares have gone up.
Why are people assuming that the due diligence was not done on the ground ? Surely the fact that the first thing they did was put £10m in a pot to spend on the ground says they knew exactly what needed doing. All the talk at the time was about spending on the ground.
The only changes since have been as the result of changes to H&S regs, which have led to the current ground works becoming urgent. Not sure how they could have been foreseen.
I don’t think anyone has suggested the stadium wasn’t looked at. Eisner himself said he had a recommendation for someone to do that from the Liverpool chairman. My belief is whatever was done wasn’t adequate. Eisner said at that time, after committing to the acquisition cost and ring fencing another 10m, he does doesn’t know what he is going to find. He said it may need more but he wasn’t prepared to commit to it. That suggests the DD on the clubs largest single asset was not bang on as it should have been - as we all know he was well short in what was required to make the stadium safe and secure the existing capacity. That was after he also spent a shedload reinventing the wheel on the “to move or not to move” issue. In the end there has been no net investment in the team because he dropped a bollock on the stadium.
RE: Where do you see the club in 5 years ? - Hammie - 05-02-2022
anyone who has had building work done over the last couple of years will have their own story about how the estimate compares to the final cost.
RE: Where do you see the club in 5 years ? - briefcase_wanchor - 05-02-2022
(05-02-2022, 06:50 PM)Hammie Wrote: anyone who has had building work done over the last couple of years will have their own story about how the estimate compares to the final cost.
It’s not just about price increase in materials etc cos if COVID. It’s what wasn’t discovered.
RE: Where do you see the club in 5 years ? - Pompeyloyal - 05-02-2022
I’ve regular read just how cheap Tornante got PFC - but just look how much money had to be poured into getting the stadium up speed
Surely hugely relevant
RE: Where do you see the club in 5 years ? - Pompeyg100 - 06-02-2022
(02-02-2022, 09:48 PM)mikey393 Wrote:A bank normally gets a valuation in order to lend, most of the time the surveyor doesn’t even get out of the car. You can pay to get a survey but it’s a fairly generic report with the surveyor protecting themselves saying ‘might have damp’ so they don’t miss anything and get sued. The problems found with the ground have been discovered when things have been removed whilst doing work.(02-02-2022, 07:40 PM)briefcase_wanchor Wrote: My firm belief is that the Eisners due diligence was woefully short of where it should have been, especially with regard to the state of the ground. Yes they knew there were issues but not the full extent and for that we can add extra years into their timeframe for on-field progress. I’ve seen dd into a football club purchase first hand and these issues would have been identified if it had been carried out to the right standard.
I totally agree with the due diligence as a full structural survey should have been taken out by a commercial surveyors.
It's very much like buying a house the bank/building society insist on a survey & full report before they'll lend against the property.
It sounds like this didn't happen as they didn't take out a bank loan against the ground?
The ground looked dreadful on Monday night with all th eenforced empty spaces.
Not sure what the attendance was?
The more I think about it the greater reasons for moving.
RE: Where do you see the club in 5 years ? - Pompeyg100 - 06-02-2022
(03-02-2022, 10:29 PM)mikey393 Wrote:Are you suggesting the club would have allowed a surveyor to strip the grounds structure to allow a survey? That just doesn’t happen.(02-02-2022, 10:47 PM)Hammie Wrote: as regards due diligence on the ground
I recall Eisner saying that anyone who has done up an old house knows there will be expensive surprises along the way. Probably far more than they hoped for but a century or so of neglect really does not come cheap to fix.
With due respect Eisner's quote is a pile of rubbish. I used to work in Mortgage Publishing & know quite a bit about surveys.
If a full structural survey had been done which strips the structure bear all this would have come out & they would been advised to either Not buy in the first place or have it bulldozed for flats. It's in a prime central area & land is very expensive to buy. The money generated could have been used to move to another site like Tipnor or similar.
The Club has 4 Main assets in what ever order you want to list them:
1) Ground
2) Team
3) Supporters
4) Management
To be able to operate a club successfully you need all four elements.
RE: Where do you see the club in 5 years ? - briefcase_wanchor - 06-02-2022
(05-02-2022, 08:35 PM)Pompeyloyal Wrote: I’ve regular read just how cheap Tornante got PFC - but just look how much money had to be poured into getting the stadium up speed
Surely hugely relevant
You're comparing a standard lenders survey to something which is commonly carried out on large scale commercial premises. 2 completely different things. I saw it first hand on behalf of someone interested in buying Port Vale about 10 years ago. The survey was nuts and bolts and ended up being the nail in the coffin for the deal (probably to Vale fans relief as it turns out). That is what I would have expected here. The Eisners weren't buying a 2 bed terrace in Fratton (that came a bit later).