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+--- Thread: The Academy (/showthread.php?tid=4290)
The Academy - Lawrence - 27-05-2024
So I get the constant reasoning behind the expense of bridging the gap from the academy to the first team with an U-21/3 side that has been made by Hughes. I don't get agree with it, particularly as most of the championship seem to have them, but I'm not an expert and Hughes has buckets of credit in the bank so I'm not going to argue.
However, since we have an academy that is recognised as almost impossible to bridge the gap to the first team, then why have an academy squad in the first place? Unless we unearth the calibre of say a Drew Talbot, Carl Tiler or Michael Owen then none of them will make a dent professionally for us. Given a choice, as a parent, would you choose to develop your kid at a club where a) we have no recent track record of bringing anyone one professionally and b) the club have admitted they don't have the current resources to complete the connection? It's like building a railway line from both ends and not completing it in the middle. All we are doing is training up kids that, at best, will benefit clubs that do have the resources to bring them further along.
I know the academy is important and not advocating getting rid. I just don't see the point in the short term to medium term.
RE: The Academy - Cunninglinguist - 27-05-2024
Yep, I think you have good reason to ask that question and someone should put that directly to the club.
RE: The Academy - mikey393 - 28-05-2024
(27-05-2024, 09:19 PM)Lawrence Wrote: So I get the constant reasoning behind the expense of bridging the gap from the academy to the first team with an U-21/3 side that has been made by Hughes. I don't get agree with it, particularly as most of the championship seem to have them, but I'm not an expert and Hughes has buckets of credit in the bank so I'm not going to argue.
However, since we have an academy that is recognised as almost impossible to bridge the gap to the first team, then why have an academy squad in the first place? Unless we unearth the calibre of say a Drew Talbot, Carl Tiler or Michael Owen then none of them will make a dent professionally for us. Given a choice, as a parent, would you choose to develop your kid at a club where a) we have no recent track record of bringing anyone one professionally and b) the club have admitted they don't have the current resources to complete the connection? It's like building a railway line from both ends and not completing it in the middle. All we are doing is training up kids that, at best, will benefit clubs that do have the resources to bring them further along.
I know the academy is important and not advocating getting rid. I just don't see the point in the short term to medium term.
This part of the club hasn't been totally ignored just put to one side as the priority has been redeveloping the ground then the team.
Now that we are back in the Championship we need to be able to compete with clubs with established academies.
We need to get in a whole team to build up this side of the club with a transition from the academy to the U21/23s.
If you go back a few years we had Mark Chamberlain managing it as I remember & at one point Alex was on our books.
But due to our lack of resources Alex went up the road to our rivals.
Rich Hughes is a pretty astute operator & will have looked at the set up at other clubs.
We have a Billionaire owner & the expense of adding a U21/23 team shouldn't be a financial constraint.
This needs to be a 5-10 year project but feel it will be worth it in the end & I'm sure the owners can see the benefits.
At present our Academy is at Category 3 level the lowest level & we neede to get up to Cat 2 asap then in time progress to Cat 1.
To show what's possible take a look at Crystal Palace who've built there's up from almost nothing to be competing at the top level.
RE: The Academy - bluetagagain - 28-05-2024
Being realistic for a moment does anyone know or have an idea of the percentage of academy kids that go on to play for their clubs? It’s very easy to spend other peoples money, however the returns need to be realistic to match the spending that’s reqd to become a Cat 2 or even 1 academy.
RE: The Academy - Cunninglinguist - 28-05-2024
It would be interesting to know what percentage of cat 1 kids actually make it in the game. It certainly doesn’t appear to be any guarantee of success, in spite of their seeming superior talent.
RE: The Academy - teeftwo - 28-05-2024
This is a great article on academy football - How Many Academy Players Make It Pro? - Idsoccer Consultancy
A figure widely touted is less than 1% make it. So purely based on the balance sheet it absolutely is not worth it. But from a community point of view it is a good way of building relationships.
RE: The Academy - Hammie - 28-05-2024
Probably worth spending a tenth of the money on developing young women instead.
Then go down the proven route of signing up rejects from the likes of Chelsea for the men's team.
All the time that anyone good we produce can be poached by the prem clubs stitch up, there is little point developing ten year's worth of talent.
Run community based stuff but don't expect much for the time being.
On the other hand, the club has described improvements at ROKO that sound very much like laying the ground for the next step, especially an indoor dome pitch thing.
RE: The Academy - DeepBlue - 28-05-2024
I remember reading a couple of years ago that our record of producing players who went on to have a career at professional level was second to only one other club amongst the Cat C academies. I'm guessing that the discarding of talent we have done since then means we are no longer that high.
However we have one academy product in the first team squad for next season at the moment (not counting Pack) so I don't think the current situation is a crisis. A development squad would seem a logical step, but it is expensive and the danger is that you still don't produce players for your own first team, only for other teams.
Currently we produce a lot of players for the local non-league scene as well, which is not an insiginificant contribution to the game.
But currently the academy is the one bit of the Guildhall speech that the Eisners have not delivered on yet.
RE: The Academy - TitchfieldBlue - 28-05-2024
Our academy is a joke and the ground is still nowhere near good enough. The ground is far too small capacity wise and views are restricted by pillars. The ground is the priority.
Until the academy and more importantly the ground are both sorted, the Eisners tenure will not be considered successful.
RE: The Academy - dsmg - 28-05-2024
I see you got another result wrong Titchy (Leeds v Scum). I don’t think I’ve ever known anyone get so many consecutive results wrong. You should write to Guinness
RE: The Academy - Isley46 - 28-05-2024
I heard that there was a development plan in place for the Academy under Cowley but this strategy was dropped / changed when he was replaced and the target understandably changed to being get promoted to the championship at all costs (hence the change in direction for U18's not having training minutes with first team and Zesh not returning to the Academy).
Next season it will be to stay in the Championship at all costs - so no change to the Academy situation.
The Palace academy development was possible because they had available space to develop into (albeit across the road from the first team training ground) - Pompey doesn't have that luxury at present and being on the island, space is very limited. Roko has been purchased so unless they are looking to build a specific Academy location away from Roko nothing will change short term. if anything the only way an U21 will be accommodated is if the U18's and below are scrapped and the 'B' team model is adopted for the U21's - which could be more beneficial to the club but doesn't promote a community spirit which the club is know for.
RE: The Academy - Hammie - 28-05-2024
(28-05-2024, 01:46 PM)Isley46 Wrote: I heard that there was a development plan in place for the Academy under Cowley but this strategy was dropped / changed when he was replaced and the target understandably changed to being get promoted to the championship at all costs (hence the change in direction for U18's not having training minutes with first team and Zesh not returning to the Academy).
Next season it will be to stay in the Championship at all costs - so no change to the Academy situation.
The Palace academy development was possible because they had available space to develop into (albeit across the road from the first team training ground) - Pompey doesn't have that luxury at present and being on the island, space is very limited. Roko has been purchased so unless they are looking to build a specific Academy location away from Roko nothing will change short term. if anything the only way an U21 will be accommodated is if the U18's and below are scrapped and the 'B' team model is adopted for the U21's - which could be more beneficial to the club but doesn't promote a community spirit which the club is know for.
I'm still hopeful that we will join up with the Rugby Club, pay for Covers to relocate and join up to create a space big enough for most of what we need. There is also the ongoing question about St Johns. Presumably not allowing a stadium, but training pitches and space for the public to use too would be good. Might depend on Labour's plan to order building houses on "green spaces on the edge of conurbations.
RE: The Academy - DeepBlue - 28-05-2024
Can't see a playing field coming under Labour's defintiion of 'grey belt' for building.
RE: The Academy - Cunninglinguist - 28-05-2024
(28-05-2024, 09:29 AM)teeftwo Wrote: This is a great article on academy football - How Many Academy Players Make It Pro? - Idsoccer Consultancy
A figure widely touted is less than 1% make it. So purely based on the balance sheet it absolutely is not worth it. But from a community point of view it is a good way of building relationships.
Cheers Teef.
I had a feeling that the figure was low but not that low!
It’s clearly evident that we shouldn’t judge our academy too harshly. It also reveals that taking PL youth on loan really is a lottery.
RE: The Academy - Hammie - 31-05-2024
(28-05-2024, 05:01 PM)DeepBlue Wrote: Can't see a playing field coming under Labour's defintiion of 'grey belt' for building.
I'd agree, although, I could see the far end of Bransbury park disappearing under concrete. As being low grade green
RE: The Academy - Hermann's_no_hermit - 31-05-2024
Another indication of how tough it is even for elite U-17s to make it:
Where are they now? England's Under-17 Euros winners from 2014 (planetfootball.com)
RE: The Academy - Hammie - 31-05-2024
(31-05-2024, 06:23 PM)Hermann's_no_hermit Wrote: Another indication of how tough it is even for elite U-17s to make it:
Where are they now? England's Under-17 Euros winners from 2014 (planetfootball.com)
On Facebook, I'm pat of "football in the 80s" group. From time to time, pictures appear of England School boys teams. Which re equivalent to U17 I guess.
I don't think I've recognised one of the names as going on to league football as yet.
RE: The Academy - mikey393 - 11-06-2024
Has anyone else seen this piece of news:
https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/sport/football/portsmouth-fc/wolves-and-newcastle-in-summer-transfer-swoops-for-highly-regarded-portsmouth-academy-pair-4661216?utm_campaign=ppp-newsletter-api&utm_medium=email&_hsenc=p2ANqtz--kGawF0MRBGl9jZr7M8EVFYz7GB--w1MhY_ShUurfYpwocAlnib8N4fCUno2CyTb5z6z1bcGlnM-ZUV2q-v9e9ex2Stqews_KyxTHsvoiYka89wRw&_hsmi=311090218&utm_content=311090218&utm_source=hs_email
I'd say a very good reason to keep the academy going & start an U21/23 team so there's a progression line to the 1st Team. Now that we're back where we belong the club need to start expanding this important area. What does everyone else think?
RE: The Academy - Theyak2 - 11-06-2024
With two starlets cherry picked by bigger fish in Wolves and Newcastle, all we get is an 'elite' signing fee and anything we can get as a percentage sell on fee!
Whilst that may come in the future to be a good deal of money, we seem stuck with losing any decent youngsters for the foreseeable future.
RE: The Academy - mikey393 - 11-06-2024
(11-06-2024, 04:47 PM)Theyak2 Wrote: With two starlets cherry picked by bigger fish in Wolves and Newcastle, all we get is an 'elite' signing fee and anything we can get as a percentage sell on fee!
Whilst that may come in the future to be a good deal of money, we seem stuck with losing any decent youngsters for the foreseeable future.
Agreed but at least we've produced two with limited resources.
RE: The Academy - teeftwo - 12-06-2024
Mikey, neither you or I know what fees we are getting for these two, but do you think it covers the cost of running the academy for the whole time they were there? You have to factor in the total cost for everyone who was at the academy whilst they were there as these two are the only ones producing an income for the entire intake.
It's unlikely.
Also consider that even if there are add-ons should they progress the chances of that are very slim (see article link above).
It is not worth it financially and it never will be. We simply cannot afford the scale of operation necessary. It's very easy to spend someone else's money based on emotion.
RE: The Academy - firqdays - 12-06-2024
I believe we do, uniquely, have the potential, wider, catchment area to produce youngsters possessing the ability for a career at the top end of the professional game.
How did we manage all those years ago to produce players like Anderton, Awford, Foster ? Did we have ANY suitable facilities at that time ?
It WOULD appear possible to bring such players through the system, and I have not given up hope that we shall see its worth in future years .
As for our ground, well its not a toilet bowl - or only half an IKEA flat pack - with no top tiers, ( even MK Dons is more attractive) .
AS for Fratton, it is recognised nationwide by proper fans, as REAL.
RE: The Academy - teeftwo - 12-06-2024
firqdays, in light of all the available statistics and reports that state that less than 1% of academy graduates go on to make a living at the top level, how are we, amongst all the top level clubs, uniquely positioned to offer a better "dream" to players than anyone else.
It is a vile, hugely competitive marketplace that requires massive continued investment in infrastructure, coaches and so on. We, quite simply, do not have anything near the amount of money an entire oil rich nation can throw away on such a vanity project. Top level clubs from many countries scour for youth talent globally. What makes Portsmouth more special than all those? Because it's an island?!
Awford and Anderton would have been prospects in the late 70's/ early80's, Steve Foster (if that's who you mean) was a product of the Southampton schoolboy system even longer ago.
So your arguments are based on, at the latest, something we did for two players 40-50 years ago when there was substantially less investment in youth football and far less global competition than now.
I agree that it would be great but it's an emotional argument based on an unrecoverable past. The world has moved on.
RE: The Academy - simonfkwit - 12-06-2024
Exactly this. The Academy system has moved on and changed beyond all recognition.
Sadly, whilst other clubs were moving with the times, our resources were spent undoing the mess that years of underinvestment, mismanagement and downright crookery left us in.
RE: The Academy - firqdays - 12-06-2024
OK teefor I stand corrected re 'Fos' , however at that time we still developed very significant players 'Pro Rata' for that time , and with minimal facilities for youth football, no proper training ground against League one clubs with superior infrastructure and finance.
Agreed, it does seem to be the one sector of football, that gives many youngsters a vision of their dream, only to see that dream burst.
Perhaps the whole system is flawed ?
At what age do footballers reach their athletic maturity these days ? - probably not until mid 20's , which in itself discredits the academy policy.