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Extra investment from Tornante - Gerry Hatrick - 02-07-2024
Looks like Eisner has dipped into his pocket again to invest another £9m into the club.
That's a total of £37m invested since they took over.
We're running at a loss but have zero debt. How many other Championship clubs can say that?
And I reckon this latest investment is just to cover the substantial work down on the ground in the last two years. If Hughes and Mousinho continue their prudent recruitment, we could be in profit by next year.
Where are those 'Yanks out!' nutters now? Burying their heads in shame, I hope.
RE: Extra investment from Tornante - Cressers - 02-07-2024
I wonder about their end game - they must have one, and what happens when they decide to sell on.
RE: Extra investment from Tornante - Milkins - 02-07-2024
Crikey - £37m.
Elsewhere, DeepBlue (I think) suggested that the work on the ground had cost £18m (and let's not forget £5m of that was already in the budget from the Trust) so that suggests another £19m on top.
Ouch.
I assume that the Tornante fund will want it back at some point.
Also, while this generosity is admirable, what does that say for the "eat what you kill" policy? Have we been gorging ourselves beyond our means for the last seven years?
On the idea of operating profit, now that we are in a higher cost league, as the Championship clearly is, without much in the way of new revenue growth to come (aside from tv & sponsorship if we get up to the Prem I suppose), I doubt that they are banking on any year to year operating profits for the foreseeable.
If JM & RH can start unearthing a few next-gen Cole Palmers that will help obvs.
RE: Extra investment from Tornante - DeepBlue - 02-07-2024
(02-07-2024, 09:09 AM)Cressers Wrote: I wonder about their end game - they must have one, and what happens when they decide to sell on.
Why must they have one ? They said they were in it for the long haul and have kept their word on virtually everything else. Eric seems to be the most active family member so when Michael gets too old or dies there is no reason to think they won't want to carry on for many years.
If and when they sell on at some time in the future, be that in 5 years,10 years or 20 years time what happens will depend entirely on who buys it. But whoever that is is likely to be buying a club in a very healthy, debt free state.
RE: Extra investment from Tornante - Milkins - 02-07-2024
(02-07-2024, 09:21 AM)DeepBlue Wrote:(02-07-2024, 09:09 AM)Cressers Wrote: I wonder about their end game - they must have one, and what happens when they decide to sell on.
Why must they have one ? They said they were in it for the long haul and have kept their word on virtually everything else. Eric seems to be the most active family member so when Michael gets too old or dies there is no reason to think they won't want to carry on for many years.
It is possible that Michael might have thought that spending over £5m per year (based on the last seven years) was worthwhile if it gives Eric something to get involved with and focus on. At the moment, ME certainly has the cash and long term investment vehicle to fund this.
I suppose if that is the "end-game" then the lack of massive and business changing investment in the club's infrastructure makes sense. You might well have hit on something there DB.
RE: Extra investment from Tornante - Gerry Hatrick - 02-07-2024
Let's be clear, this is not a charity. Tornante expect their money back plus some but they are investing without loans. They HAVE the fiscal muscle and don't need to recruit any creditors which is a win-win because £40m or so will be a drop in the ocean compared to what they will get back when they eventually sell.
Look at Brentford. Who would have believed a few years ago that they would now be worth £400m!?
RE: Extra investment from Tornante - exterminator - 02-07-2024
(02-07-2024, 09:21 AM)DeepBlue Wrote:(02-07-2024, 09:09 AM)Cressers Wrote: I wonder about their end game - they must have one, and what happens when they decide to sell on.
Why must they have one ? They said they were in it for the long haul and have kept their word on virtually everything else. Eric seems to be the most active family member so when Michael gets too old or dies there is no reason to think they won't want to carry on for many years.
If and when they sell on at some time in the future, be that in 5 years,10 years or 20 years time what happens will depend entirely on who buys it. But whoever that is is likely to be buying a club in a very healthy, debt free state.
IIRC when Tornante took over the question about "how long" was raised & the answer was a 50 year project - that is going to see most of us on this board pushing up the daisies !!
So just enjoy the ride
RE: Extra investment from Tornante - wjd - 02-07-2024
The Eisner family have done well for us but in my opinion, we need to keep a balanced view. They bought the club from those of us that purchased it when we had just got ourselves back into League 1. The price the Eisners paid represented a low price for a club of Pompey's size but the Trust did not have the funds to progress. The price reflected the need to do considerable work on the stadium to secure the necessary spectator capacity. The Eisners and the Trust factored that into the selling price. It was a good decision all around. The Eisner family then enhanced the ground further with better facilities, larger areas around bars, food vending, etc. Again, a good commercial decision. The Eisners then bought and improved the training facilities and thus the value of the club (owning land in Portsmouth never lost anyone any money)! Once again an excellent investment. Finally securing promotion has further increased the value of their asset. So, wise investment all round. Solid business sense. Realistically the Eisners have done a good job but it's not some charitable donation, it is good business with almost certainly a solid return should they wish to sell at some point. As already pointed out, if they can oversee a return to the Premier league at some point, then the investment to date would be dwarfed by the increase in value of the club and before anyone comments, let me just say that, as already stated, I believe that overall, the Eisners have done well.
RE: Extra investment from Tornante - Milkins - 02-07-2024
(02-07-2024, 11:41 AM)wjd Wrote: The Eisner family have done well for us but in my opinion, we need to keep a balanced view. They bought the club from those of us that purchased it when we had just got ourselves back into League 1. The price the Eisners paid represented a low price for a club of Pompey's size but the Trust did not have the funds to progress. The price reflected the need to do considerable work on the stadium to secure the necessary spectator capacity. The Eisners and the Trust factored that into the selling price. It was a good decision all around. The Eisner family then enhanced the ground further with better facilities, larger areas around bars, food vending, etc. Again, a good commercial decision. The Eisners then bought and improved the training facilities and thus the value of the club (owning land in Portsmouth never lost anyone any money)! Once again an excellent investment. Finally securing promotion has further increased the value of their asset. So, wise investment all round. Solid business sense. Realistically the Eisners have done a good job but it's not some charitable donation, it is good business with almost certainly a solid return should they wish to sell at some point. As already pointed out, if they can oversee a return to the Premier league at some point, then the investment to date would be dwarfed by the increase in value of the club and before anyone comments, let me just say that, as already stated, I believe that overall, the Eisners have done well.
A couple of things on this need correcting;
In the short term the Trust did have the funds to progress the club, including the first £5m on the ground, and it was out of debt and making year on year operating profits. How they'd have dealt with Covid is anyone's guess but no other clubs have gone bust as a result of just that. In any case I'm pleased that the Eisner's rather than PST and its shareholders had to ride that one out.
On the second point, "The price reflected the need to do considerable work on the stadium to secure the necessary spectator capacity. The Eisners and the Trust factored that into the selling price." - No it didn't and this is simply wrong.
The purchase price for any single, or indeed block of PST shares was set by the nature of the community shares and remained £1000 per share. So the PST members that paid £1000 per share in 2013 risked their capital as an act of faith and desire to see the club into community ownership, with the prospect that they would lose their money if the club later, went bust. At that point yet another relegation or two might well have done the job...
When the Eisner's bought the club he paid the same £1000 per share (so no profit was made by PST or any shareholder, and I haven't met any shareholder that wanted to take a profit out of the club) but by that point the club had no debt, was making annual operating profits, had just been promoted and had (and I might be a little wrong on this) something like £5m in the bank.
All in all a much better prospect than when PST stepped in.
So the club was not sold as a distressed asset because of the ground works needed (although work was needed), but, the price was low by virtue of the share structure. This structure (and not sharp practice and nor am I suggesting it) means it was definitely bought on the cheap by ME.
RE: Extra investment from Tornante - DeepBlue - 02-07-2024
Absolutely.
The price paid by the Eisners was set by the terms of the supporter buy-out..
So it was impossible for anyone to pay any more than Tornante did.
RE: Extra investment from Tornante - Gerry Hatrick - 02-07-2024
OMG you try to deliver some good news and the bloody accountants take over to sap the living joy out of it.
RE: Extra investment from Tornante - teeftwo - 02-07-2024
Indeed. The difference between us and other clubs is that when Tornante put money into the club, they don't do it by means of a loan. They don't saddle us with ever increasing unserviceable debt.
I'm sure that many, many years down the line when they sell, they will get good value for their time and money. But in order to do so, given the way they inject money into the club, they will have to build a stable, profitable business.
This can only be good for us as it means that
a) We don't go bust
b) We get to watch football at a decent level
Quite honestly, when I voted yes, that was all I wanted. My mind has not changed.
RE: Extra investment from Tornante - slayer - 02-07-2024
Things change. Enjoy the ride.
RE: Extra investment from Tornante - TheSyrup - 02-07-2024
No I had a chat with Eric Eisner in the corporate area at Lincoln away and after speaking to him for a while, the man is Pompey mad, he really gave me the impression that he is besotted.
The Eisners have done a great job on and off of the pitch.
Infrastructure is the key to long term success.
RE: Extra investment from Tornante - mikey393 - 02-07-2024
There's No getting away from it the Eisners have been very good for the club.
But, they did buy it on the cheap with the price being the deciding factor.
They had already looked at Reading & No doubt carried out due diligence on it but Pompey was a better all round prospect.
They've had to spend a lot on the ground to get a new Safety Certificate as the ground was crumbling.
But you could argue they've been fattening up the club to eventually sell & turn a nice profit.
As they are businessmen there's Nothing wrong with that at all.
We are now at a crossroads having been promoted to the Championship after 12 barren years & are now one Step away from a return to the "Promised Land" The Premier League.
We are now playing with much wealthier clubs with deeper pockets to spend on player recruitment & are generating a lot more from larger season ticket sales & Bigger sponsorship deals.
They also run bigger & better acadamies so can generate their own talent to go into the 1st team or sell for large profit.
The recruitment team have done an excellent job so far but this season will be much harder competing for players on frees & paid transfers against much wealthier clubs. They need a competitive playing budget or we'll be fighting relegation from Day 1.
I'm Not scaremongering just being totally realistic.
RE: Extra investment from Tornante - 66zoolane - 02-07-2024
As so often stated, they're businessmen. Look on that as a good thing, and it certainly has been for our stability.
They've also witnessed how time consuming (years) and how expensive it's been to finally break free of L1.
So why, being successful businessmen, as well as supporters, does anyone think they wouldn't do everything necessary to ensure that at the very least, we don't slip straight back into L1 and start the whole process again. Even if they were planning to sell, which there's no reason to believe they are anytime soon, they'll want a Championship side at the very very least.
They're businessmen.
RE: Extra investment from Tornante - Hammie - 02-07-2024
They have done a fantastic job. Now we are up against prem parachute payments and ridiculous contracts like 6 years for a young millionaire. Sad that those in the lower leagues are often lucky to get a one year contract. We need to take time to stabalise in the champ. The current champ finances are well known to be a complete shite show, if we struggle a bit while watching some other clubs go down the tube, then that is what we will have to do. Might have to copy Luton.
RE: Extra investment from Tornante - bluetagagain - 02-07-2024
(02-07-2024, 07:03 PM)mikey393 Wrote: There's No getting away from it the Eisners have been very good for the club. ----- Well said
But, they did buy it on the cheap with the price being the deciding factor. -------- No they didn't,they bought it for the asking price
They had already looked at Reading & No doubt carried out due diligence on it but Pompey was a better all round prospect. ---- Your point being?
They've had to spend a lot on the ground to get a new Safety Certificate as the ground was crumbling. ------- Any buyer would've had to do that
But you could argue they've been fattening up the club to eventually sell & turn a nice profit. ---------- No you couldn't as the Eisners have never ever hinted at that.
As they are businessmen there's Nothing wrong with that at all. ----- Again,your point being??
We are now at a crossroads having been promoted to the Championship after 12 barren years & are now one Step away from a return to the "Promised Land" The Premier League.--- That's what promotion does.
We are now playing with much wealthier clubs with deeper pockets to spend on player recruitment & are generating a lot more from larger season ticket sales & Bigger sponsorship deals. ---- Agree but that's what happens, its called progression
They also run bigger & better acadamies so can generate their own talent to go into the 1st team or sell for large profit.---- As has been mentioned many many times very few academy players get sold for large profits or indeed make their own first teams.
The recruitment team have done an excellent job so far but this season will be much harder competing for players on frees & paid transfers against much wealthier clubs. They need a competitive playing budget or we'll be fighting relegation from Day 1. ----- I think Hughes and Cullen are aware of this but in case they're not you should email the club.
I'm Not scaremongering just being totally realistic. --- or stating the bloody obvious.
RE: Extra investment from Tornante - Gerry Hatrick - 03-07-2024
(02-07-2024, 10:10 PM)bluetagagain Wrote:(02-07-2024, 07:03 PM)mikey393 Wrote: There's No getting away from it the Eisners have been very good for the club. ----- Well said
But, they did buy it on the cheap with the price being the deciding factor. -------- No they didn't,they bought it for the asking price
They had already looked at Reading & No doubt carried out due diligence on it but Pompey was a better all round prospect. ---- Your point being?
They've had to spend a lot on the ground to get a new Safety Certificate as the ground was crumbling. ------- Any buyer would've had to do that
But you could argue they've been fattening up the club to eventually sell & turn a nice profit. ---------- No you couldn't as the Eisners have never ever hinted at that.
As they are businessmen there's Nothing wrong with that at all. ----- Again,your point being??
We are now at a crossroads having been promoted to the Championship after 12 barren years & are now one Step away from a return to the "Promised Land" The Premier League.--- That's what promotion does.
We are now playing with much wealthier clubs with deeper pockets to spend on player recruitment & are generating a lot more from larger season ticket sales & Bigger sponsorship deals. ---- Agree but that's what happens, its called progression
They also run bigger & better acadamies so can generate their own talent to go into the 1st team or sell for large profit.---- As has been mentioned many many times very few academy players get sold for large profits or indeed make their own first teams.
The recruitment team have done an excellent job so far but this season will be much harder competing for players on frees & paid transfers against much wealthier clubs. They need a competitive playing budget or we'll be fighting relegation from Day 1. ----- I think Hughes and Cullen are aware of this but in case they're not you should email the club.
I'm Not scaremongering just being totally realistic. --- or stating the bloody obvious.
Well said, bluetagagain
RE: Extra investment from Tornante - Lawrence - 03-07-2024
That £9 million pales into insignificance when you factor in that the relegated teams this season will have £44 million each to spunk at their whim. Financially, the next few seasons are going to be very interesting for Pompey.
I wonder if Cullen thinks this club can make an operating profit in the championship with a 20,000 capacity ground and a poorly producing academy and still stay up?
Not dissing the club at all by the way but this league is arguably as financially nuts than the premier league.
RE: Extra investment from Tornante - mikey393 - 03-07-2024
Agreed & being totally realistic.
We don't have the financial muscle to compete but good player recruitment on a budget & top manager shoulsd see us through.
Good Cup runs can hand us a financial helpline.
RE: Extra investment from Tornante - exterminator - 03-07-2024
I believe that "parachute payments" are so that relegated PL clubs can continue to pay their players for the length of the contracts they have given them.
PL clubs normally only sell 2/3 players to current PL clubs if they are relegated. Therefore they may have c20 or more players on PL wage contracts to pay for the next 1/2/3 yrs.
The vast majority of these players are mercenary & would rather hang about in the Championship drawing PL wages until their contract runs out.
As they got the club relegated in the 1st place it doesn't mean they are any good.
RE: Extra investment from Tornante - Hammie - 03-07-2024
(03-07-2024, 06:28 PM)exterminator Wrote: I believe that "parachute payments" are so that relegated PL clubs can continue to pay their players for the length of the contracts they have given them.
PL clubs normally only sell 2/3 players to current PL clubs if they are relegated. Therefore they may have c20 or more players on PL wage contracts to pay for the next 1/2/3 yrs.
The vast majority of these players are mercenary & would rather hang about in the Championship drawing PL wages until their contract runs out.
As they got the club relegated in the 1st place it doesn't mean they are any good.
exactly. Without parachute payments then the clubs would stop giving out such ridiculous contracts without relegation clauses. Its what killed Pompey.
RE: Extra investment from Tornante - slayer - 03-07-2024
I'm sure the most avid Chelsea fan would talk Ambramovich into the stratosphere.. until things changed.
There can not be a 50 year plan. Noone is in full command of their destiny and they are deluding themselves if they think they are.
Enjoy it - and them, who have been superb - whilst it lasts.
RE: Extra investment from Tornante - firqdays - 07-07-2024
As i have said before, Michael EISNER is first, and foremost, a very pragmatic businessman. I
It will not be lost on him that he is of senior years, however it would seem that there is genuine longevity in the period of Eisner club ownership. He has done what he originally said he would , and more besides.
As mentioned, the Premier monies seem astounding, and of mind blowing proportions compared to our outlay - however, and big however, how much of that is already spent annually on servicing very large loans, and , as suggested above, on doing that against the tiles, on rubbish player's, on crazy wages, players tied to the club without any financial benefit ?
We have not been saddled with debt, we are not living beyond our means. We now have a safe stadium to be proud of, and we have very very astute people running our club. Be proud !