[exgaffer]

I think the Poles, Magyars and Italians are going to be pretty pissed off when they find out their not actually part of sovereign States. When are you thinking of breaking it to them Muschi?

Call that a bite.

‘A ring wing thang’. Wtf   .

[Tufnell_Chimes]

Far-right snowflake populists funded by Putin.

[Jezzer]

I think the Poles, Magyars and Italians are going to be pretty pissed off when they find out their not actually part of sovereign States. When are you thinking of breaking it to them Muschi?

Call that a bite.

‘A ring wing thang’. Wtf   .

I think he meant right wing thong. Muschi wears proud  neanderthal anyone?

[muschi]

No I just slipped something i to see if the brain dead would make a fuss about a trivial point while ignoring a significant event, they don't want to hear about.

[Tufnell_Chimes]

Well this is all going well isn't it. Who'd have thunk that laugh-along, bung-a-bob-for-big-ben-to-bong-boris-johnson would turn out to be an amoral, narcissistic, lying fucktard?

[exterminator]

Well this is all going well isn't it. Who'd have thunk that laugh-along, bung-a-bob-for-big-ben-to-bong-boris-johnson would turn out to be an amoral, narcissistic, lying fucktard?

Apart from the left wing loony loving followers like you Duffers most voters  pin that badge on ALL politicians from whichever party.

[Tufnell_Chimes]

Don't try and spread it across everyone Ex, this is taking amoral, narcissistic, fucktardary to levels we've never seen before. Even for the tories this is bad.


...and there really is no need to add what I'd written if your response is directly below it.

[Smirnoffexpress]

Tuffers old boy, you have fallen into the trap of believing that it is only the Tory’s that are cunts. Bad news, Westminster and our political establishment are currently nothing but a refuge for cunts of every persuasion. Always expect Tory’s to be cunts and they rarely disappoint, it’s the other cunts I cannot get my head around.

[Tufnell_Chimes]

Its not a trap, its a cliché - and the reason its a cliché is because its true. I can only think of one, of any lengthy-ish duration, that appears decent - and his constituency deselected him (Dominic Grieve). The Labour Party does have a few, but they're nowhere near the numbers in the Conservative Party and its because the routes to parliament that are so different.

Conservatives are mostly public school, oxbridge, PPE, Conservative Party researcher, underling to a prominent MP, try them out on a few marginals till they reach the hallowed safe seat. After that its all business connections and milk the position for all its worth. The path taken by Labour hopefuls is usually trade unions, law (esp human rights), credit unions, citizens advice service - some from public schools (17%) but almost two-thirds went to comprehensives.

Boiled down, tories especially those from public schools - and even deeper - boarders at public schools don't think like anyone else in the country - they aren't like anyone else in the country. They've the slimmest notion of family, been schooled to believe they're opinion is the only one that counts, and have absolutely no idea how the rest of us live. We're all just fodder to them - we are the Magic Money Tree.

[Smirnoffexpress]

Cannot argue with most of that but will take a slight issue with your view on Labour MPs. The type of school they attended has a bearing on their life outlook obviously. However, a more telling way of seeing what they carry with them. Is to ask how many of them had working class jobs before becoming elected as MPs. There are now less working class MPs in Parliament than there was in the 1970s, certainly if judged on their prior occupation. Yes, the trades unions still have an input in the selection process. But there are less MPs coming from the shop floor, and that isn’t because there are less shop floors. As indeed there are. Many Labour MPs have taken the same route into politics as the Tory’s you describe. This contributes to the state politics finds itself in. There are many in this country that think that the Labour Party has done as much damage to the working class in the last twenty five years than any Tory could have. A sad state of affairs.

[Tufnell_Chimes]

Remembering of course that the tories have been running the show for the last eleven years - most of those years with the lie of ‘necessary austerity’. Aside from Iraq - which was an historic miscalculation - and cosying up to the betting industry, how does Blair and Brown’s governance compare with the current shower of shit taking us for fools?

[Smirnoffexpress]

Who bought in student loans?

Who raised the pension age?

Who open the floodgates for immigration, diluting services and putting the squeeze on those at the bottom end of society?

[Tufnell_Chimes]

And who tripled - tripled - those student loans?

Pension ages? Hmmm...
“The government has been told to increase the state pension age to 75 by 2035, in a move to tackle the challenges posed by an ageing society to the UK’s fiscal balance.
The proposal – which also includes raising the state pension age to 70 by 2028 – was made by the Centre for Social Justice, a think tank chaired by Iain Duncan Smith MP, former secretary of state for Work and Pensions.”

Opening the floodgates? Really, these are people you know - bright, taxpaying, skilled people - you may have well as gone full-farage and called them a swarm. I don’t think they did put the squeeze on working people - they may have put the squeeze on lazy, overpriced tradesman, is that a bad thing?

Dismantling SureStart and closing libraries had a far greater impact on damaging working peoples prospects. Forcing the terminally ill and chronically disabled back into work - for which they were totally incapable - with the threat and actual removal of benefits. There’s no comparison at all.

[Smirnoffexpress]

Lazy, over paid tradesmen? Most tradesmen I work alongside can earn well, but most are on pricework. Work hard earn well. Be lazy, as you put it, and they earn fuck all. Foreign labour did affect them for a spell, with the foreign labour being used to undercut rates. However it was the unskilled and semi skilled labourers that bore the brunt. Lads on £8/£9 per hour employed by the construction company’s through agencies suddenly found Polish lads turning up prepared to do the work for what was then the minimum wage. That was fact and happened right across the South East. A 25%  potential decrease in wages at that level is catastrophic. Labour opened the floodgates but did nothing to protect the interests of the workers at that level. That impacted not only upon those already here but also allowed the immigrants to be used in a disgusting way.
I make absolutely no apologies for using the term “floodgates” because that is exactly what it has been. Upon agreeing to increase the flow of immigrants. Wasn’t it Tony Blair that was quoted as saying “let’s see how they like multiculturalism” or words to that affect. For nigh on a decade we had the equivalent of a city the size of Coventry extra people on these Islands each year. Where are the extra hospitals, schools, dentists and housing to cope with this? The lack of Government strategy for funding this influx is a disgrace. Many of the migrants that we have welcomed here. Came here expecting healthcare free at point of use and of a high standard. They also expected quality schooling and the chance of acquiring decent housing without bankrupting themselves. When Governments make no allowance for additional funding services and quality of life is diluted. This actually affects those coming in just as harshly as those already here.
I have worked alongside hundreds of immigrants over the last ten years and more and they do add value to what we have. You can forget Brexit being the biggest reason for some returning to the country they arrived from. Many I know have returned because the constant battle of high rents and low wages gradually wore them down. Labour, the party of the working man, left all those at the bottom end to squabble over crumbs. Shame on them.

[Tufnell_Chimes]

Work hard, earn well - nothing wrong with that. But, teeth-sucking plumbers telling you that they can't do it for a fortnight or maybe three weeks, wouldn't use those taps and by the way it may be this much, but could be more - they had to change their tune pretty quickly.

The open invite to the ten new member states was an error, but it wasn't deliberate (I think they thought 10% of the actual number would migrate) and nor was it opposed by the tories. And if as you say it continued on for ten years, the last four of those was under Cameron, so if you're using immigration as a stick to beat down wages of the working classes, the tories were just as complicit, and have taken it even further with zero hours contracts (974,000 as of the end of 2019) and as Britannia Unchained spells out this current cabinet have plans to strip away maternity pay, holiday pay, sick pay, maximum working hours and probably hundreds of other working conditions to give business 'a competitive edge'.

Brexit is undoubtedly a reason for some returning, who wants to stay in a country that now actively vilifies them? But also, they're returning because their domestic economies are so much stronger directly as a result of membership to the EU. Which also expands the customer base of the EU - we have of course have done the absolute opposite - our economy is weaker, more vulnerable and with a much reduced customer base.

Labour, the party of the working man? I thought all parties were supposed to support working people, why let the tories off the hook just because they paint themselves as the nasty party.

[oi oi saveloy]

Work hard, earn well - nothing wrong with that. But, teeth-sucking plumbers telling you that they can't do it for a fortnight or maybe three weeks, wouldn't use those taps and by the way it may be this much, but could be more - they had to change their tune pretty quickly.

The open invite to the ten new member states was an error, but it wasn't deliberate (I think they thought 10% of the actual number would migrate) and nor was it opposed by the tories. And if as you say it continued on for ten years, the last four of those was under Cameron, so if you're using immigration as a stick to beat down wages of the working classes, the tories were just as complicit, and have taken it even further with zero hours contracts (974,000 as of the end of 2019) and as Britannia Unchained spells out this current cabinet have plans to strip away maternity pay, holiday pay, sick pay, maximum working hours and probably hundreds of other working conditions to give business 'a competitive edge'.

Brexit is undoubtedly a reason for some returning, who wants to stay in a country that now actively vilifies them? But also, they're returning because their domestic economies are so much stronger directly as a result of membership to the EU. Which also expands the customer base of the EU - we have of course have done the absolute opposite - our economy is weaker, more vulnerable and with a much reduced customer base.

Labour, the party of the working man? I thought all parties were supposed to support working people, why let the tories off the hook just because they paint themselves as the nasty party.

It’s gotta be tough on your kids having a father who’s so fookin stupid you really shouldn’t be allowed to breed.

[Tufnell_Chimes]

Savzzz has woken up!

[BilltheCat]

How can you tell?

[oi oi saveloy]

A terrible burden on your kids.

“This is our Dad Tufnell,say hello Dad”

“Grunt,grunt,dribble”

[Tufnell_Chimes]

You can do better than that Savzzz. That’s Mooosh-level of lame abuse, I expect abuse with a bit of swagger and wit from yourself.

[Smirnoffexpress]

They are certainly not returning to their country of origin because the EU has improved earning capacities in those countries. The wages for workers in those countries have really remained low. With most men I speak to saying there has been no increase in wages. The EU has not had a significant impact on improving wages in most of the newer member states.

Labour also did more harm than good with both the minimum wage and minimum redundancy payments. The battle for minimum wage increase s should have been built around a living wage not a minimum wage. The minimum becomes the maximum when dealing with unscrupulous employers. Likewise redundancy,the minimum became the accepted maximum. As a consequence the majority lost out on redundancy payment wise.

As I have already said, I expect the Tories to shit on my sort. What hurts is when you see what you considered as those on supposedly on my side shitting on their own. That in my eyes makes them worse than the Tories. Until those in the Labour Party accept mistakes and learn from them they have no chance of being even decent in opposition, let alone government. And that is a crying shame because ultimately, their inability to get their act together damages not only us the citizens but also democracy as a whole.

PS. You have a point, re the Tories also representing the working man. After all many working class folk in traditional Labour constituencies. Decided at the last election that the Tories represented a better choice. They voted accordingly and the red wall fell. Maybe I should drop my historic dislike of them and change tack.

[Tufnell_Chimes]

However bad you think Labour are - and I've been a recipient of that minimum redundancy payment, and in the last ten years the minimum wage has for most become a maximum wage - they will never be as bad for working people than the tories. Just look at the news today regarding the cladding scandal. If you bought a one-bedroom flat in one of these apartment blocks you're on the hook for up to a £100k bill to fix it. It doesn't appear to matter that the developers, in all likelyhood, knew they were taking a shortcut, that building control signed them off, that each individual buyer would have paid for a professional survey before purchase, that the mortgage company accepted this survey, and they don't even own the building - the freeholder does, but according to the tories, none of this matters, its the leaseholder who has to pay - somehow they should have known. People on regular wages with modest aspirations are going into bankruptcy over this - I know of a solicitor in this situation, when she declares bankruptcy she will also lose her career.

"the Commons voted 340 to 225 against an amendment to the fire safety bill to protect leaseholders from costs to make their homes safe in the wake of the Grenfell Tower disaster. The total bill for leaseholders could exceed £12bn, according to property experts"

So go ahead and change tack if you like, but be sure you know what you're cosying up to.

[Smirnoffexpress]

The cladding issue is down to many combined things. Not least inept/incompetent build control, low grade technical staff and buyers not understanding the specification, site management not understanding the specification and build regs, and suppliers presenting the wrong certification at tender stage. All are guilty in part and all should be sued, by Government not individual lease holders. Anything less is a disgrace.

[Tufnell_Chimes]

Well from their actions today it appears that the government have too many vested interests, and no wish to upset them. For all the faults you're aiming at Labour, there's no way they'd do that.

[Smirnoffexpress]

As I said a disgrace, those that got it wrong should be forced to rectify it at their expense not the poor leaseholder.