(05-09-2021, 09:38 PM)exgaffer Wrote: [ -> ] (05-09-2021, 05:46 PM)bluetagagain Wrote: [ -> ]So which din are you then? Anti- vaxxer or Uber liberal tosser
‘Uber’ ffs.
German for ‘above’.
An American technology company.
A pretentious term used by people trying to appear intellectual.
In which context are you using the word? 
A pretentious term used by people who are intellectual.
Does my NHS letter count?
(06-09-2021, 11:18 AM)exgaffer Wrote: [ -> ] (06-09-2021, 11:08 AM)Hammie Wrote: [ -> ]I thought there was an NHS vaccine proof thing on your phone?
Mind you I always get there early to watch the warm ups so am unlikely to be in a massive queue with those (who shall not be named) who prefer an extra pint or six before braving watching Pompey.
As regards Scotland, with their numbers doubling as soon as school reopened we can expect to see the same here.
There is an NHS App with proof of vaccination but can you imagine the chaos checking that for thousands of people?
As for the number of cases, that is not the important thing. We don’t religiously count cases for everything else do we? Testing for flu virtually ceased when this madness was at it’s height, resulting in the skewing of case figures which were used as justification for shutting life down.
I repeat, anyone scared of Covid can stay away can’t they? Let the rest of us get on with life while we have it ffs.
Thx only thing we all have in common is that we die, the only questions are when and how.
Lif is short, we can’t afford to waste it.
‘Lif is short, we can’t afford to waste it.’
?
(06-09-2021, 01:28 PM)Bluestow Wrote: [ -> ] (06-09-2021, 11:18 AM)exgaffer Wrote: [ -> ] (06-09-2021, 11:08 AM)Hammie Wrote: [ -> ]I thought there was an NHS vaccine proof thing on your phone?
Mind you I always get there early to watch the warm ups so am unlikely to be in a massive queue with those (who shall not be named) who prefer an extra pint or six before braving watching Pompey.
As regards Scotland, with their numbers doubling as soon as school reopened we can expect to see the same here.
There is an NHS App with proof of vaccination but can you imagine the chaos checking that for thousands of people?
As for the number of cases, that is not the important thing. We don’t religiously count cases for everything else do we? Testing for flu virtually ceased when this madness was at it’s height, resulting in the skewing of case figures which were used as justification for shutting life down.
I repeat, anyone scared of Covid can stay away can’t they? Let the rest of us get on with life while we have it ffs.
Thx only thing we all have in common is that we die, the only questions are when and how.
Lif is short, we can’t afford to waste it.
‘Lif is short, we can’t afford to waste it.’
?
Lif is short....for Life.
(06-09-2021, 02:34 PM)malcm Wrote: [ -> ] (06-09-2021, 01:28 PM)Bluestow Wrote: [ -> ] (06-09-2021, 11:18 AM)exgaffer Wrote: [ -> ] (06-09-2021, 11:08 AM)Hammie Wrote: [ -> ]I thought there was an NHS vaccine proof thing on your phone?
Mind you I always get there early to watch the warm ups so am unlikely to be in a massive queue with those (who shall not be named) who prefer an extra pint or six before braving watching Pompey.
As regards Scotland, with their numbers doubling as soon as school reopened we can expect to see the same here.
There is an NHS App with proof of vaccination but can you imagine the chaos checking that for thousands of people?
As for the number of cases, that is not the important thing. We don’t religiously count cases for everything else do we? Testing for flu virtually ceased when this madness was at it’s height, resulting in the skewing of case figures which were used as justification for shutting life down.
I repeat, anyone scared of Covid can stay away can’t they? Let the rest of us get on with life while we have it ffs.
Thx only thing we all have in common is that we die, the only questions are when and how.
Lif is short, we can’t afford to waste it.
‘Lif is short, we can’t afford to waste it.’
?
Lif is short....for Life.
Very true, lif is even shorter than life.
All the more reason to live it to the full
.
Liv it lik your lif dpndd on it.
neve a truer word spok in jes
I wonder how many of the youngsters refusing the jab have noticed the climb in their age group in hospital?
Some clubs up in the north west could struggle if vaccine uptake is still low.
PART 1 as I wrote over 6000 words
I've lurked on this forum for a while now and feel it's now time to (re)show my face. Yeah ya boy Ravo is back though I won't be posting as frequently as I used to on the previous messageboard. Part of my social media detox which started last year which included deactivating my Facebook (but still keeping my account so I can use Messanger). I'm still on Reddit though because there is some funny shit on there.
I'll go into detail about why I stopped posting on here and the whole FB thing in another thread as I'm sure you'll all be very interested to know, but lets get into this thread.
Frist with the Vaccine passports I am againts them for the footie but purely from an inconvinience perspective which I'll get into later, what I want to do is address the whole "freedoms", "slippery slope" "1984" stuff and all the other buzzwords that get thrown around whenever the topic pops up.
For starters a Vaccine passport (VP from now on) does not infringe any of your basic rights within society. You can still gather in public places, you have the right to privacy in your own home, you have the right to vote etc. No where in the Human rights bill 1998 (I think) is the right to attend a football match, or go to a club/pub/cafe included. These are all privilages. For any number of reasons as governed by the terms and conditions of a private business, they can refuse you service for example not having a valid ticket to a game, being too drunk for a club/pub, not wearing clothes (see masks here), none of these measures are deemed authotarian. It's not "literally 1984" if a business refuses service, unless said businesses reason for refusal was discrimination against a protected characteristic. If you don't have a vaccine you can still go outside, protest, vote, have privacy in your own home etc. If we had to scan a barcode to leave our home then it's a different question (awaits "slippery slope") comment, that would be a two tiered society but a pub or footie ground refusing entry is not and if you think it is then you need to keep your self importance in check.
Going back to the authotarian measures we accept and have accepted for a long time without batting an eyelid, have a think about everything you have to do to be able to drive. You have to be of a certain age, pass a governemt standard theory test, pass a government standard practical test, our car has to have been built to goverment safety regulations and pass an annual government 'fit for use' check, you have to have insurance by law, you have to obey 100s of road traffic laws, wear a seatbelt and as proof that you earned the privilage to drive you have to have a goverment issued driving licence with your face on it, a driving passport if you will. All of this will cost you at minimum £1500, and if you break any of those standards you will lose the privilage of being allowed to drive on UK roads.
Compare this to getting a vaccine and then an app both of which are free and you can get your VP in about 30 seconds by clicking like 4 times. By sheer quantity of boxes we have to tick being able to drive is a far more authotarian process that a VP, yet we don't even blink at it all.
Now regarding COVID itself, the measures were put in place to stop hospitals getting overcrowded and as someone who until about 6 weeks agao when I left my data role in the NHS to start a new role at Pompey Uni, it's was a lot closer than you realise. The basis of a health care system is to keep people out of hospital, and there's a lot to be said about the general health of this country but that's a topic for another time.
Again there are many misconceptions about hospital numbers so I'll try and put some to bed now.
1) With vs For Covid. This is irrelevant, if you test positive and are in hospital for any sort of treatment you have to be put in a seperate COVID ICU due to the risk of reinfection. We know that hospitals and care homes were one of the most likely places to catch COVID which is why such stringent measures were put in place. It also means all those videos of idiots filimg corridors and waiting rooms claiming "empy hospitals" were as idiotic as they first appeared. I'll say it again it does not matter if you're in hospital for Covid cause Pnuemonia or becuase you've had a stroke, if you test positive you have to be put in a COVID ICU. You have to be quarantined. This is standard for other highly infections diseases as well.
PART 2 as I wrote over 6000 words
2) Flu is killing more than COVID. Yes but that lacks context, Flu is not a virus but a group of around 60 viruses much like Heart Disease is a group name for a range of conditions. Every year there are multiple strains in circulation which kill circa 10000 a year mostly through the winter but again, mutiple viruses split into types>subtypes & lineages>clades>subclades. SARS COV 2 is one virus, that has caused 156,888 deaths (this is figure is wherby COVID is mentioned on the birth certificate. Before someone points out "they may have been in a car crash but tested positive" I've got you covered, (
https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transpare...ausein2020) the figures on the right are where COVID is the primary cause (sum is 65306), on the left is involving COVID (sum is 71611) up to December 18th. So where COVID is primary cause is only 8.8% less than where it is underlying cause, though the definition of underlying cause as per the above FOI is that is is a contributing factor to the patients deaths although not the inital cause of illness. If we use that 8.8% and apply to the 156888 deaths mentioned above we arrive at 144023 deaths with COVID as the primary cause. Usual confidence interval of 5% either way but still a number of deaths that far outstrips Flu, heart disease, cancer (again cancer is a group of diseases).
I should mention again that I'm still again VPs for footie matches as it would take bloody ages to check them upon arriving at the turnstiles which is the main reason I very much doubt they wil be implemented there. It's different for clubs and such as you already get ID checked upon entry so all you'd need to do is have your phone ready. Simples innit
I think I've rambled on long enough, I'm sure you're all bored by now and I want to play some Halo before workout time. I could go into the Vaccines themselves but I'll save that for when someone posts something insane without a source.
PLAY UP POMPEY!!!
(07-09-2021, 07:01 PM)RavoPFC Wrote: [ -> ]PART 2 as I wrote over 6000 words
2) Flu is killing more than COVID. Yes but that lacks context, Flu is not a virus but a group of around 60 viruses much like Heart Disease is a group name for a range of conditions. Every year there are multiple strains in circulation which kill circa 10000 a year mostly through the winter but again, mutiple viruses split into types>subtypes & lineages>clades>subclades. SARS COV 2 is one virus, that has caused 156,888 deaths (this is figure is wherby COVID is mentioned on the birth certificate. Before someone points out "they may have been in a car crash but tested positive" I've got you covered, (https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transpare...ausein2020) the figures on the right are where COVID is the primary cause (sum is 65306), on the left is involving COVID (sum is 71611) up to December 18th. So where COVID is primary cause is only 8.8% less than where it is underlying cause, though the definition of underlying cause as per the above FOI is that is is a contributing factor to the patients deaths although not the inital cause of illness. If we use that 8.8% and apply to the 156888 deaths mentioned above we arrive at 144023 deaths with COVID as the primary cause. Usual confidence interval of 5% either way but still a number of deaths that far outstrips Flu, heart disease, cancer (again cancer is a group of diseases).
I should mention again that I'm still again VPs for footie matches as it would take bloody ages to check them upon arriving at the turnstiles which is the main reason I very much doubt they wil be implemented there. It's different for clubs and such as you already get ID checked upon entry so all you'd need to do is have your phone ready. Simples innit
I think I've rambled on long enough, I'm sure you're all bored by now and I want to play some Halo before workout time. I could go into the Vaccines themselves but I'll save that for when someone posts something insane without a source.
PLAY UP POMPEY!!!
Welcome back Ravo...I disagree with most of what you've said concerning vaccine passports and covid deaths. There are far too many tales of Covid on a death cert where it's plain the patient died of cancer etc etc.
Vaccine passports are a slippery slope, you are alienating a section of people from joining in with society just because they don't want an emergency vaccine with unknown long term side effects. Are those people supposed to just retire from public life? Are we absolutely sure the vaccines aren't causing the mutations?
Good to hear from you again
Welcome back Ravo and although I don’t believe in having vaccine passports. I do believe in everything you’ve said. If people don’t want to get vaccinated ( other than medical reasons), that’s there choice but then again if they are refused admission/ flights etc then that’s the choice they made. Can’t have your cake and eat it.
RavoPFC Wrote:I'll save that for when someone posts something insane without a source.
exgaffer will be along shortly.
Good to see you back Ravo. Be careful with all that expertise though - its not that popular these days.
Good to see you back Ravo, I think you’ve made a good decision on the social media front by the way.
I agree with a lot of what you say but not the bits about flu and Covid.
Yes flu is caused by a range of ‘flu’ viruses but Covid is caused by a range of Covid mutations, so I think you are splitting hairs a trifle.
The deaths from Covid have been overstated IMO, the fact that Covid appears on the death certificate isn’t conclusive as it can, and does, appear in conjunction with other life threatening conditions. Magically deaths from flu stopped during the height of the pandemic, probably because it wasn’t being tested for.
The problem appears to be a lack of quarantine hospitals that Covid (or other highly infectious disease) patients can be sent to. Currently they go to the same hospitals as everyone else, thereby limiting treatments for other life threatening conditions. The figures now strongly suggest that excess deaths from other causes have outstripped those for Covid.
Our obsession with one disease has been insane IMHO.
Jizbag said "Are we absolutely sure the vaccines aren't causing the mutations? "
Yes, we are absolutely sure because that is not how viruses work. A virus can only mutate when that virus is replicating in a cell so this happens within the host body. This will happen regardless of whether a vaccine has been injected into the host body.
"But vaccine's are composed of the virus" I hear you say. Well yes and no. None of the available vaccine's contain live virus so therefore there is no chance of a vaccine causing a mutation because there is no live virus to multiply and mutate.
"But what if you have a vaccine, won't the virus mutate to protect itself?" No, this is not how a virus works, it mutates by random chance, much as your cells do when they divide, occasionally a rogue mutation might give rise to cancer or something else. The presence of a vaccine cannot increase the chances of the virus mutating, in fact it reduces it. It doesn't sit there going, "Oh, the immune system is attacking me, I better try something new.".
A virus is likely to evolve into a less deadly but more transmissible variant as a virus that kills it's host quickly is not likely to be passed along so will die out. Variants that are less deadly will, by the process of evolution, become more successful.
"But I've seen stuff on youtube that says differently." Get in the sea.
"Yeah, well I'm allowed my opinion." Yes you are, and it's wrong. Having an opinion does not make you right. Listen to the scientists and virus experts not the nutjobs or Carol who heard something on Facebook.
"Magically deaths from flu stopped during the height of the pandemic, probably because it wasn’t being tested for."
Nothing to do with the social distancing then?
Thank you for the warm welcome back everyone, felt nice to post something instead of just having a perve.
I actually agree with you on several points Gaff, I'll get to them in a sec.
Regarding Flu and Covid, Flu is an umbrella term for multiple viruses. There will be more prominant versions each season but it's not the case where it is one sole virus like Covid. Whilst Covid does have multiple strains others die out leaving the one prominant one as we saw over the past 18 months from O.G Covid to the Alpha (Kent) variant and where we are now with Delta (Indian). The equivilant for Flu would be a mutation into a new strain such as we saw with Bird or Swine.
In terms of the Covid deaths being overstated, this just isn't true. I've already done the maths in my previous post and looking at excess deaths paints an even clearer picture when used in conjuction. Even in a bad flu season we get away with between 25-30K flu deaths, and with Covid as the primary cause of death we have over 130000 so far in just 18 months.
There are many reasons why Flu numbers dropped last year, but the suggestion that they magically disappeared is again a falsehood. We still had a large number of cases and deaths but they were reduced by our own modified behaviours and by the retrictions put in place. As per an ONS FOI there were 20,523 deaths due to Flu and Pnuemonia. Flu viruses are respiratory viruses that is (mostly) transmitted via air. It's common sense that measures such as social distancing, increased hand washing, masks in confined spaces and an increase in Flu vaccinations are the reason why these numbers fell. Just on the Flu vaccine for a sec, last years campaign saw the highest ever number of Flu jabs administered since the program started in 2002, it stands to reason that we could reduce the numbers we see even more if more people got the vaccine.
Onto the thng I agree with you in regards to quarantine hospitals. In principle I agree and this ties in with a broader argument of infrastructure. The phrase "live with Covid" has been thrown around so much it's starting to lose meaning as people don't seem to have an idea what living with Covid would entail regarding how they act, and what the government should be doing in terms of regulations/infrastruture.
Whether people like it or not things change, you are not the same person you were yesterday, and we cannot go back to exactly the way things were before 2020 kicked off, it's basic physics of time at that point. There are simple measures we as people can take which will limit the spread of the virus, handwashing with soap regularly, isolating if testing positive and I know this one grates people but wearing a mask in a public and busy place (emphasis on the "busy"). No need to where one if you're out for a jog and you're the only one on your route. To be honest masks don't bother that much, it's a small inconvenience when looking at the bigger picture. If there was a winter mask mandate on shops and public transport from say October to March and that is what it took to keep life moving then so be. Obviosuly the scenario isn't as binary as that but you understand my point. I'm sure if people across the entirety of East Asia in all age groups can manage it out of sheer politeness so can we, but I suppose this may be naive thinking from me. There is small and unfortunately growing number of people who took the message to wash their hands more often as a personal insult so expecting them to wear a mask for the benefit of other people through winter may be wishful thinking.
Onto what the governemnt should be doing, investment in other treatments especially home remedies, think like a Covid equivilant of Lemsip. We need to stop starving researchers and facilities of funds, we saw what they can do when they are given the money without having to beg cap in hand. We also need to look at drastically upgrading the ventilation and filtration of a lot of buildings. You cannot expect the air to be clean when the filters get changed once every 5 years and the most of the windows don't open. We should also be looking at eliminating all mass farms. You know the ones where it's 100 chickens in a 1m squared coop. These are breeding factories for diseases and have been the location of where all of our previous animal to human mutation problems have arisen. Swine Flu, Bird Flu, SARS COV 1 and even spanish flu (which originated in America the Spanish were the first to acknowledge it) were all viruses that started in these sort of wet markets/battery farms. If we wanna stop these mutation happening we have to stop providing such ample condition.
It's a team effort, there is stuff we can and stuff the government must do if we are to live with Covid and the next ineviatable one. We had 3 warning shots between 2000 and 2020 before we actually got hit. This won't be the last either.
And on that positive note lol PLAY UP POMPEY!!!
130,000 deaths with covid not of covid. How many more times?
(08-09-2021, 07:55 PM)TBP Wrote: [ -> ]130,000 deaths with covid not of covid. How many more times?
How many more times before you read the whole post you're responding to?
Some great points there RavPFC hard to disagree with them.
I guess the next step is to start rolling out the third shot for those most at risk especially in Care-Homes, Hospitals. I'll also say staff in schools.
With the issue over Covid on the death certificates especially with the older folk with underlying problems. It clear to me a dose of covid will knock them over much sooner than the underlying problems and who knows how long they would live if they haven't had Covid? Wouldn't want to try explaining to a family member Covid wasn't the reason.
Masks don't bother me I think anyone with the flu wanting to go out in the public should consider protecting others for a few days.
Not bothered about VPs generally but it's how they are going to be applied. Keeping huge queues of people together could be counter productive.
A vaccine passport wouldnt necessarily need to be checked for everyone attending. If its a condition of entry the vast majority wouldn't bother turning up if there was a possibility that the passport would be checked. I know i cant drive my car without a licence and before brexit i could travel across borders in Europe without presenting a passport. I still needed a passport to travel though.
It need not cause huge queues with todays technology, it would be on an app for the majority or in paperform for those without access to smart phones. The vaccine status could also be added to season tickets.
I think for protecting public health these are pretty small steps to make.
(08-09-2021, 09:54 AM)teeftwo Wrote: [ -> ]Jizbag said "Are we absolutely sure the vaccines aren't causing the mutations? "
Yes, we are absolutely sure because that is not how viruses work. A virus can only mutate when that virus is replicating in a cell so this happens within the host body. This will happen regardless of whether a vaccine has been injected into the host body.
"But vaccine's are composed of the virus" I hear you say. Well yes and no. None of the available vaccine's contain live virus so therefore there is no chance of a vaccine causing a mutation because there is no live virus to multiply and mutate.
"But what if you have a vaccine, won't the virus mutate to protect itself?" No, this is not how a virus works, it mutates by random chance, much as your cells do when they divide, occasionally a rogue mutation might give rise to cancer or something else. The presence of a vaccine cannot increase the chances of the virus mutating, in fact it reduces it. It doesn't sit there going, "Oh, the immune system is attacking me, I better try something new.".
A virus is likely to evolve into a less deadly but more transmissible variant as a virus that kills it's host quickly is not likely to be passed along so will die out. Variants that are less deadly will, by the process of evolution, become more successful.
"But I've seen stuff on youtube that says differently." Get in the sea.
"Yeah, well I'm allowed my opinion." Yes you are, and it's wrong. Having an opinion does not make you right. Listen to the scientists and virus experts not the nutjobs or Carol who heard something on Facebook.
Thanks for the reply, so why don't the vaccines prevent the spread of covid and prevent you from becoming ill Mr know all, I mean Teeftwo. Surely that is the entire purpose of a vaccine?