"rolling out the third shot for those most at risk especially in Care-Homes, Hospitals. I'll also say staff in schools. "
Agree with that
But as always the fact that most social care takes place in the community is forgotten.
Most people prefer to stay in their home for many reasons. The staff that treat them go from house to house, many visits a day.
At times during the various lockdowns almost all of their clients in the key hospital discharge team (Portsmouth, joint NHS/Council) were known to be Covid positive. Those workers had only the "sandwich maker" PPA for much of that time and were obviously highly at risk of both catching and transmitting the disease. This was made more likely as they work in peoples' homes which are often poorly or rarely cleaned. At least hospital workers are in a setting designed to be easily cleaned and cleaned at least daily.
First thing to say is that passports would not stop anybody contracting or passing on covid to anyone else. It might not kill you, but since we're now squinnying about cases numbers in a bit to keep everyone scared, it won't stop that.
This passport sets the precedent. What argument do you have to not add other ailments that potentially effect other people. Shall we add our mental health status for example? Or hiv? Post covid, we'll have a ready to go service. Do you think this lot are going to stop there?? I just hope it doesn't end up costing £50 billion like the crazy track and trace and data collection app cost.
One thing is for certain, they keep on getting elected. My conscience is clear on that front.
Well anyone that compares mental health with a virus pandemic shouldn’t be allowed to vote.
(09-09-2021, 08:06 AM)Jizbag Wrote: [ -> ]Thanks for the reply, so why don't the vaccines prevent the spread of covid and prevent you from becoming ill Mr know all, I mean Teeftwo. Surely that is the entire purpose of a vaccine?
I'm glad you asked. The COVID vaccines help prevent infection from a specific variant but are not 100% effective. In fact barely any vaccine for any disease is 100% effective. In the case of the COVID vaccines the time from the emergence of the disease to the first vaccine was incredibly short so their efficacy is improving but is not perfect.
You seem to totally misunderstand how vaccines work or their purpose. When you have a vaccine the body create T-cells that can attack the virus. It doesn't prevent you getting the virus but it does allow your body to successfully fight it and destroy the virus cells. In the main this happens before the virus becomes transmissible and as I'm sure you know different viruses have different ways of transmission. COVID is particularly good at moving from host to host so it's no surprise that this can happen before your body kills it off. You may have COVID, never know, never get ill and still have the ability to pass it on. This is known as
asymptomatic transmission. You may even transmit it before you get symptoms. COVID is very good at this. The virus itself, outside the body is pretty weak, which is why you need to wash your hands you dirty boy before you stick your hand in your mouth or rub your eyes.
The vaccine does provide good protection to the individual as the T-cells that are created within the body are in most cases effective at fighting the virus when it enters. Even if the individual gets ill the T-cells can attack enough of the virus so as to reduce the severity of the disease.
You ask what the purpose of a vaccination program is. Well generally it's eventually eradicate a disease by getting to the point of herd immunity so the virus dies out. With some viruses that constantly mutate, such as the influenza set of viruses, it's more about protecting the vulnerable than eradicating it.
Further reading
here for you on how vaccines work. You'll see that the first vaccine for Measles was introduced in 1968 but it took literally decades to get the numbers down to almost zero and even then this was scuppered by the
nutjob Andrew Wakefield who made a lot of stuff up with faked results. As a consequence of his lies, a substantial amount of weak-minded idiots stopped having their kids jabbed and the instances of measles rose causing a lot of unnecessary suffering. Those same weak minded people today (anti-vaxxers) who think they know more than the virologists and infectious disease experts are prolonging this pandemic through their stupidity.
Maybe next time try to actually understand a subject before shooting your mouth off.
(09-09-2021, 10:08 AM)teeftwo Wrote: [ -> ] (09-09-2021, 08:06 AM)Jizbag Wrote: [ -> ]Thanks for the reply, so why don't the vaccines prevent the spread of covid and prevent you from becoming ill Mr know all, I mean Teeftwo. Surely that is the entire purpose of a vaccine?
I'm glad you asked. The COVID vaccines help prevent infection from a specific variant but are not 100% effective. In fact barely any vaccine for any disease is 100% effective. In the case of the COVID vaccines the time from the emergence of the disease to the first vaccine was incredibly short so their efficacy is improving but is not perfect.
You seem to totally misunderstand how vaccines work or their purpose. When you have a vaccine the body create T-cells that can attack the virus. It doesn't prevent you getting the virus but it does allow your body to successfully fight it and destroy the virus cells. In the main this happens before the virus becomes transmissible and as I'm sure you know different viruses have different ways of transmission. COVID is particularly good at moving from host to host so it's no surprise that this can happen before your body kills it off. You may have COVID, never know, never get ill and still have the ability to pass it on. This is known as asymptomatic transmission. You may even transmit it before you get symptoms. COVID is very good at this. The virus itself, outside the body is pretty weak, which is why you need to wash your hands you dirty boy before you stick your hand in your mouth or rub your eyes.
The vaccine does provide good protection to the individual as the T-cells that are created within the body are in most cases effective at fighting the virus when it enters. Even if the individual gets ill the T-cells can attack enough of the virus so as to reduce the severity of the disease.
You ask what the purpose of a vaccination program is. Well generally it's eventually eradicate a disease by getting to the point of herd immunity so the virus dies out. With some viruses that constantly mutate, such as the influenza set of viruses, it's more about protecting the vulnerable than eradicating it.
Further reading here for you on how vaccines work. You'll see that the first vaccine for Measles was introduced in 1968 but it took literally decades to get the numbers down to almost zero and even then this was scuppered by the nutjob Andrew Wakefield who made a lot of stuff up with faked results. As a consequence of his lies, a substantial amount of weak-minded idiots stopped having their kids jabbed and the instances of measles rose causing a lot of unnecessary suffering. Those same weak minded people today (anti-vaxxers) who think they know more than the virologists and infectious disease experts are prolonging this pandemic through their stupidity.
Maybe next time try to actually understand a subject before shooting your mouth off
Well the vaccine is so good that the virus appears to be still spreading despite 70% odd of people having taken it. Have you seen Israel's figures??
We're being fed BS by the government. I think I would have more faith in what they were saying if they allowed opinions from scientists other than Sage to be heard. But we know what happens to those people.
Are you a scientist Teeftwo? You seem to know a lot about the subject?
Oh do get in the sea Jizbag. Have you actually read or attempted to understand anything I've just told you?
I have supplied you with links from the BMA and an independent immunology group. Apart from enrolling you in an actual medical degree I'm struggling with how to bring your understanding up from the level of the lowest percentile of Sun reader. You obviously would rather believe Carol from Facebook and some tin foil hat wearing knob jockey on YouTube than actual scientists, medical professionals and PhD qualified virologists.
The over 80's were the first to get fully vaccinated and death rates in that age group have fallen. As the number of adults fully vaccinated increases so will death rates decrease.
Even though I have already stated it I'll say it again, a vaccine does not stop you getting a disease, it's not a magic shield. It does give your body the tools (T cells) to fight the disease. In the best case scenario you never notice it was there, in some cases you might feel a little dodgy. Some unlucky people will still get ill, maybe hospitalised and and some will even die. But the vast majority won't. Vastly more won't than if we didn't take the vaccine.
Try to understand the basic concepts, it's so important not to die from being a thicky.
(09-09-2021, 02:02 PM)teeftwo Wrote: [ -> ]Oh do get in the sea Jizbag. Have you actually read or attempted to understand anything I've just told you?
I have supplied you with links from the BMA and an independent immunology group. Apart from enrolling you in an actual medical degree I'm struggling with how to bring your understanding up from the level of the lowest percentile of Sun reader. You obviously would rather believe Carol from Facebook and some tin foil hat wearing knob jockey on YouTube than actual scientists, medical professionals and PhD qualified virologists.
The over 80's were the first to get fully vaccinated and death rates in that age group have fallen. As the number of adults fully vaccinated increases so will death rates decrease.
Even though I have already stated it I'll say it again, a vaccine does not stop you getting a disease, it's not a magic shield. It does give your body the tools (T cells) to fight the disease. In the best case scenario you never notice it was there, in some cases you might feel a little dodgy. Some unlucky people will still get ill, maybe hospitalised and and some will even die. But the vast majority won't. Vastly more won't than if we didn't take the vaccine.
Try to understand the basic concepts, it's so important not to die from being a thicky.
So you aren't a virologist or anything else. You've just read it online. And I reiterate the situation with Israel. And in fact this country where the number of infections appear to have increased hugely since people started taking the vaccine.
If I were you I'd stop trying to pretend you know everything about the vaccine. If the vaccine truly worked to the degree the government said it did then the clamour for vaccine passports would be redundant as everyone who wanted to be vaccinated would be protected from the virus. But it now appears that it's not the wonderful saviour that we were told, hence people still wearing masks (pointless) and a government u turn on vaccine passports.
If you're a healthy young person then why on earth would you want to take the risk of an emergency vaccine? But now it seems your life choices are dramatically reduced unless you go down that route. How on earth is that possibly fair and democratic? Everyone should have a right to choose what goes into their body and their rights shouldn't be compromised based upon their decision. Anyone who thinks this is an ok thing needs their head examined imho.
My partner is a GP Jizbag, we have had extensive conversations on the subject. I'm well educated to degree level (in the day when getting a degree was not a given). I'm well read, I do my research from verifiable sources, some of which are listed above. I've understood how viruses work since school because I was paying attention, in an era when knowledge was gained by reading books, not watching thickos on the internet.
If you want to dismiss experts with a huge number of qualifications and literally decades of experience in the area alongside the vast amount of data on the subject and a indisputable mountain of evidence about the efficacy of vaccines then you are a fool.
Just stop now, you're embarrassing yourself. Some people just don't want to learn and stick in their heels. You are like a child.
anyone who questions vaccines and their effect had best ask themselves why our generation have not been dying from Smallpox, diphtheria, polio or any of the other plagues that blighted previous generations.
I don't think it's a question of the effecacy of vaccines, but the state attempting to bully people into having them by threatening a withdrawal of 'privileges' that were previously rights.
(09-09-2021, 04:47 PM)teeftwo Wrote: [ -> ]My partner is a GP Jizbag, we have had extensive conversations on the subject. I'm well educated to degree level (in the day when getting a degree was not a given). I'm well read, I do my research from verifiable sources, some of which are listed above. I've understood how viruses work since school because I was paying attention, in an era when knowledge was gained by reading books, not watching thickos on the internet.
If you want to dismiss experts with a huge number of qualifications and literally decades of experience in the area alongside the vast amount of data on the subject and a indisputable mountain of evidence about the efficacy of vaccines then you are a fool.
Just stop now, you're embarrassing yourself. Some people just don't want to learn and stick in their heels. You are like a child.
You are a condescending twit aren't you??
The point is that even if the vaccines work as well as we were told (which they don't appear to) we should have a choice whether we take it or not.
If we are either forced to have one, or some of our freedoms are taken away by refusing to have one then this is not democracy and basically is a form of fascism.
When you live in a society sometimes you have to do things for the good of that society including obeying laws. For example you cannot choose which driving laws you want to obey, you have to obey them all or suffer the consequences. This is why smallpox vaccination was done and why this vaccination programme is being undertaken.
You live in about the most liberal society in the world, stop bleating on about fascism. You've no idea what that really is, you just use the word to try and make it seem like some imagined rights are being taken away.
Fool.
If those that don’t want the vaccine because it’s their right not too. Then they should be refused treatment if they contact Covid. Harsh I know but apparently it’s all about choices . Unfortunately we live in an era of the individual’ rights and needs and not those of the community.
(09-09-2021, 08:33 PM)bluetagagain Wrote: [ -> ]If those that don’t want the vaccine because it’s their right not too. Then they should be refused treatment if they contact Covid. Harsh I know but apparently it’s all about choices . Unfortunately we live in an era of the individual’ rights and needs and not those of the community.
Their right not TO.
(09-09-2021, 06:42 PM)teeftwo Wrote: [ -> ]When you live in a society sometimes you have to do things for the good of that society including obeying laws. For example you cannot choose which driving laws you want to obey, you have to obey them all or suffer the consequences. This is why smallpox vaccination was done and why this vaccination programme is being undertaken.
You live in about the most liberal society in the world, stop bleating on about fascism. You've no idea what that really is, you just use the word to try and make it seem like some imagined rights are being taken away.
Fool.
I have been agreeing with much of what you have said. However there is no law making any vaccinations compulsory as an adult. I think anyone who chooses not to have the COVID jab is a moron but would always defend their right to do so. It is crazy to compare it with driving.
(09-09-2021, 06:42 PM)teeftwo Wrote: [ -> ]When you live in a society sometimes you have to do things for the good of that society including obeying laws. For example you cannot choose which driving laws you want to obey, you have to obey them all or suffer the consequences. This is why smallpox vaccination was done and why this vaccination programme is being undertaken.
You live in about the most liberal society in the world, stop bleating on about fascism. You've no idea what that really is, you just use the word to try and make it seem like some imagined rights are being taken away.
Fool.
I've been prepared to let some of your insults go, but stop now. OK? Otherwise you can say it to my face.
For the good of society?? Since when has vaccinating children been the right thing to do to protect older people? That's simply appalling.
As for rights being taken away...remember lockdown???
We disagree and that's that.
(10-09-2021, 06:51 AM)Hermann's_no_hermit Wrote: [ -> ] (09-09-2021, 06:42 PM)teeftwo Wrote: [ -> ]When you live in a society sometimes you have to do things for the good of that society including obeying laws. For example you cannot choose which driving laws you want to obey, you have to obey them all or suffer the consequences. This is why smallpox vaccination was done and why this vaccination programme is being undertaken.
You live in about the most liberal society in the world, stop bleating on about fascism. You've no idea what that really is, you just use the word to try and make it seem like some imagined rights are being taken away.
Fool.
I have been agreeing with much of what you have said. However there is no law making any vaccinations compulsory as an adult. I think anyone who chooses not to have the COVID jab is a moron but would always defend their right to do so. It is crazy to compare it with driving.
Harmannm, you misunderstand. Jizbag was saying it's fascism to lose his so called rights to attend matches, go to nightclubs or work in the care industry because the Government may pass laws to say a vaccination or a valid medical exemption are required to do these things. No law has been passed mandating vaccination and I doubt there will be. However if you don't get a vaccine and there are consequences from other laws then that's just tough, it's part of being in a society. You are not free to do whatever you want, never have been. There's no freedom to drive without a license, there's no freedom to take what you want from a shop without paying, there's no freedom to operate as a doctor without the correct qualification and licensing. For some things you have to obey the laws to have the privilege and there's nothing wrong with that.
Jizbag - using the "We disagree and that's that response." It's the same tired old I have the right to have an opinion even though I am plainly wrong. Of course vaccinating children to protect society is the right thing to do, we all had vaccinations as kids, what the hell did you think that was for you utter mong. It's been going on for decades and it's the right thing to do. Utter idiot.
(10-09-2021, 08:17 AM)teeftwo Wrote: [ -> ] (10-09-2021, 06:51 AM)Hermann's_no_hermit Wrote: [ -> ] (09-09-2021, 06:42 PM)teeftwo Wrote: [ -> ]When you live in a society sometimes you have to do things for the good of that society including obeying laws. For example you cannot choose which driving laws you want to obey, you have to obey them all or suffer the consequences. This is why smallpox vaccination was done and why this vaccination programme is being undertaken.
You live in about the most liberal society in the world, stop bleating on about fascism. You've no idea what that really is, you just use the word to try and make it seem like some imagined rights are being taken away.
Fool.
I have been agreeing with much of what you have said. However there is no law making any vaccinations compulsory as an adult. I think anyone who chooses not to have the COVID jab is a moron but would always defend their right to do so. It is crazy to compare it with driving.
Harmannm, you misunderstand. Jizbag was saying it's fascism to lose his so called rights to attend matches, go to nightclubs or work in the care industry because the Government may pass laws to say a vaccination or a valid medical exemption are required to do these things. No law has been passed mandating vaccination and I doubt there will be. However if you don't get a vaccine and there are consequences from other laws then that's just tough, it's part of being in a society. You are not free to do whatever you want, never have been. There's no freedom to drive without a license, there's no freedom to take what you want from a shop without paying, there's no freedom to operate as a doctor without the correct qualification and licensing. For some things you have to obey the laws to have the privilege and there's nothing wrong with that.
Jizbag - using the "We disagree and that's that response." It's the same tired old I have the right to have an opinion even though I am plainly wrong. Of course vaccinating children to protect society is the right thing to do, we all had vaccinations as kids, what the hell did you think that was for you utter mong. It's been going on for decades and it's the right thing to do. Utter idiot.
I agree with a lot of that except that the requirement for proof of vaccination is illogical.
The vaccine merely gives the vaccinated some degree of protection from serious illness and death, it doesn’t prevent the vaccinated from passing on the virus.
If you want the public to comply with rules they need some degree of credibility.
If someone wants to take the risk of attending a nightclub unvaccinated that should be a matter for them.
As for requiring the same thing for outdoor events such as football matches, that is even more illogical.
(10-09-2021, 08:17 AM)teeftwo Wrote: [ -> ] (10-09-2021, 06:51 AM)Hermann's_no_hermit Wrote: [ -> ] (09-09-2021, 06:42 PM)teeftwo Wrote: [ -> ]When you live in a society sometimes you have to do things for the good of that society including obeying laws. For example you cannot choose which driving laws you want to obey, you have to obey them all or suffer the consequences. This is why smallpox vaccination was done and why this vaccination programme is being undertaken.
You live in about the most liberal society in the world, stop bleating on about fascism. You've no idea what that really is, you just use the word to try and make it seem like some imagined rights are being taken away.
Fool.
I have been agreeing with much of what you have said. However there is no law making any vaccinations compulsory as an adult. I think anyone who chooses not to have the COVID jab is a moron but would always defend their right to do so. It is crazy to compare it with driving.
Harmannm, you misunderstand. Jizbag was saying it's fascism to lose his so called rights to attend matches, go to nightclubs or work in the care industry because the Government may pass laws to say a vaccination or a valid medical exemption are required to do these things. No law has been passed mandating vaccination and I doubt there will be. However if you don't get a vaccine and there are consequences from other laws then that's just tough, it's part of being in a society. You are not free to do whatever you want, never have been. There's no freedom to drive without a license, there's no freedom to take what you want from a shop without paying, there's no freedom to operate as a doctor without the correct qualification and licensing. For some things you have to obey the laws to have the privilege and there's nothing wrong with that.
Jizbag - using the "We disagree and that's that response." It's the same tired old I have the right to have an opinion even though I am plainly wrong. Of course vaccinating children to protect society is the right thing to do, we all had vaccinations as kids, what the hell did you think that was for you utter mong. It's been going on for decades and it's the right thing to do. Utter idiot.
You like insults don't you? I'm afraid your point is being invalidated due to you continuation of belittling and insulting someone who doesn't agree with you.
We were vaccinated as children with vaccines that were tried and tested, not an emergency vaccine. And I truly thought it was to prevent me getting TB or Polio. Vaccinating kids who have no chance of dying from a disease in order to protect people is plain wrong. Because some of those kids will develop severe symptoms or even death from the vaccine.
Do you live locally Teeftwo?
Oh do stop behaving like a child, next thing you'll be wanting a scrap in the playground.
(10-09-2021, 09:37 AM)teeftwo Wrote: [ -> ]Oh do stop behaving like a child, next thing you'll be wanting a scrap in the playground.
Teeftwo, I've just heard the director of the CDC on radio saying that virul load of the delta variant is the same in vaccinated people and unvaccinated. Also said that vaccinated are 6.72 times more likely to get infected than those with natural immunity.
Just saying....
(10-09-2021, 08:12 AM)Jizbag Wrote: [ -> ]I've been prepared to let some of your insults go, but stop now. OK? Otherwise you can say it to my face.
Oh do stop now Jiz. Go read a book.